Shooter Responsibility

We recount the chilling Crumbley family tragedy that has ignited conversations nationwide about parental responsibility and gun control. We dissect the events leading up to the school shooting and the landmark court case that followed, examining the missed red flags and the harrowing impact on the victims' families. The discussion is heavy but necessary, as we contemplate the legal and moral ramifications of the parents' actions, and the message it sends across the country about accountability.

Lastly, we delve into the broader issue of community in child-rearing, contrasting the collective approach we experienced growing up in South Africa with the individualism more common in the US. This segment is particularly close to our heart, sharing an encounter with a distressed teenager and the communal effort to ensure his safety. We scrutinize the role of educators, the strains on the mental health system, and how recent legal precedents might influence our societal attitudes towards responsibility. Join us for this profound exploration, and as always, we're eager to hear your thoughts, so don't hesitate to subscribe and drop a review.

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What Do you Know About the podcast with your favorite husband and wife, duo Sam

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way it's been pretty life-changing, I have to say.

Tayla: 0:35

It's been two nights now, right, yeah, yeah no, okay.

Sam: 0:39

so I was totally gonna make fun of you for buying a silk pillowcase. I was like 100% ready Wait why, though?

Tayla: 0:47

What were you going to make fun of me for? It just seems unnecessary and silly. Why.

Sam: 0:52

It seems excessive. Okay, I've got a silk pillowcase, anyway. So you put it on and I was like, oh, what's that? And you're like, oh, it's a silk pillowcase. And you gave me a whole big spiel about it.

Tayla: 1:11

And then I was like and then, as you put it down, I lay it on it. And I was like, oh, oh, this is nice, it's smooth it's cool, it's good for your skin, good for your hair. See, I just don't care about those things, but it was so comfortable, it was so nice surprising because I feel like I don't typically like that feeling of like silk, or at least I never did.

Tayla: 1:23

I feel like maybe the older I get, the more open I am to that feeling. But it was actually at our friend's house in texas. They I don't know if it's exactly silk, but it was silk or satin or something was the bedspread of the house we stayed at and I was like, oh, I didn't know that I would enjoy it. And I actually did. And then all the research and blah blah, so it is 100 silk so what's next? So like bed sheets next yeah, like you, you can do silk bed sheets ethically sourced.

Sam: 1:55

What does that even mean?

Tayla: 1:56

it means that it's only you like. They're only gathering silk from vacated cocoons instead of like boiling oh, doing the gestating yeah, yeah, moths out of it do you have a problem with non-ethically sourced? Silk. I just don't see the reason for it. Just wait a couple days. So yes, I don't think it. It makes sense to like kill something for no reason.

Sam: 2:27

Sure, all right Fine.

Tayla: 2:30

Judgment Okay.

Sam: 2:32

History is going to judge you wrong.

Tayla: 2:35

It's on the record.

Sam: 2:36

Okay, so, but I need to understand the steps though. So silk sheets next.

Tayla: 2:42

I don't know actually I haven't looked. I mean, I imagine that would be good and comfortable. Again, you have to be careful with how you wash it and stuff. So it'd be a little bit more work.

Sam: 2:52

Okay.

Tayla: 2:53

But yeah, I think it'd be really nice.

Sam: 2:56

What about like silk, like bathrobe or, you know, bedtime clothes, pajamas?

Tayla: 3:00

I just never use ropes Pajamas. I could do for sure Again, something I never would have thought as a child.

Sam: 3:06

Well, if you need to think of a birthday present for Tayla, something silk.

Tayla: 3:11

Yeah, I have already ordered Sam's pillowcase. Oh really, since he liked mine so much, thank you.

Sam: 3:17

I barely use a pillowcase, though, because I end up just kind of pushing it aside and sleeping with my head on and sleeping.

Tayla: 3:22

Maybe it's because the pillowcase is so bad yeah, that's probably what it is lies, but I mean it may help with like coolness and I don't know, your pillow, your pillow itself is actually like very much too soft, so I don't like, yeah, your pillow at all no, it's soft so I can.

Sam: 3:38

So it's soft and hard at the same time, so like you can bend and shape it, and that way I can like I don't like a good firm, yeah shove it around my face while I'm sleeping, like you know no, I that makes me so claustrophobic.

Tayla: 3:51

I do not like that, but I actually had like this. This is such a tangent, but it's interesting to me because when I moved to the states, I have very I have very thin or small ear canals, so they get.

Sam: 4:05

I can confirm that she has very, if not, the tiniest ear canals I've ever seen on an adult human ever. I didn't know that you had looked closely at my ear canals, but it was one of the defining features of like well, I was like yes, this is the girl.

Tayla: 4:22

She's got a genetic defect that our kids have now and they just deal with constant ear infections.

Sam: 4:28

But you have cute little ears. Yeah, the ears, but the ear canal. You know they go hand in hand.

Tayla: 4:32

It'd be nice if they were normal size Either way. When I moved here, like the pressure changes and the altitude changes, I just struggled with blocked ears all the time. It was very disorienting, very jarring. I hated the feeling, could hardly hear what teachers were saying, and so like I have this thing about my ears feeling like they're blocked, so I even like at night I will kind of lie on my fists and my hands just so that there's not like a perfect seal around my ear so that it doesn't feel blocked.

Tayla: 5:00

Don't like it. Interesting also maybe I have a subconscious fear of going deaf.

Sam: 5:05

I don't know remember when I went deaf for like like four days. Yeah, that was interesting, that was weird, yeah, anyways we never figured out why sick. I don't know I think I keep, you know, extending the syndrome because I don't want to get into it today, because this one's freaking, yeah, heavy, heavy is the right word. What?

Tayla: 5:23

What were you going?

Sam: 5:23

to say Depressing.

Tayla: 5:25

Yeah, it is pretty depressing. So let me I guess that's Excuse me, guys, it's late. Okay, I guess you've teed me up for an intro, so today we're diving into a story that shocked the nation the Crumbley family tragedy. In November of 2021, a horrific school shooting unfolded, leaving multiple students and staff members dead. At the center of the storm were James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of the alleged shooter.

Tayla: 5:56

The weeks that followed were filled with questions. What warning signs, if any, were missed? Did the Crumbleys play a role in the events leading up to the shooting? The details that emerged were chilling. The Crumbleys a role in the events leading up to the shooting? The details that emerged were chilling. The Crumblies, according to the reports, allegedly ignored concerning behavior from their son, including disturbed drawings and social media posts. They also allegedly purchased the gun used in the shooting just days before the incident, and this all culminated in a recent landmark verdict. Both James and Jennifer Crumbley were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, a decision that has sparked national conversations about parental responsibility and gun control. So we're going to just dissect the Crumbley case from a few angles. We're going to explore the events leading up to the shooting, the trial itself and then the impact of the tragedy and the ruling. So, babe, what do you know about? How do I want to name this shooting or shooter responsibility?

Sam: 6:45

man, absolutely nothing.

Tayla: 6:47

So I saw the the article on sorry, one of these times you'll surprise me with you know actually quite a lot yeah quite a lot. Anyway, go ahead um, it was.

Sam: 6:57

I saw a news article today about it and it was like kind of an interesting headline. It was, like, you know, the parents of the shooters sentenced to 10 to 15 years and I was like, oh of an interesting headline. It was like, you know, the parents of the shooter is sentenced to 10 to 15 years and I was like, oh, wow, that seems like an overreach. But then I looked into it and it's like, oh, these people were just awful and you know, this sentencing doesn't even it might even be a bit light Like they were very clearly pushing this kid and providing this kid with guns and with ammo and enabling, enabling him and like almost like pushing him over the edge.

Sam: 7:32

It's pretty sickening, to be honest yeah.

Tayla: 7:34

So let's get into a couple of the details. Let's talk about what kind of led up to the actual shooting. So, prior to the shooting, a teacher found a very disturbing drawing made by Ethan Crumbley, their son, that depicted a gun, a shooting and a person with a bullet wound. And also days before the shooting, there were some text messages that revealed exchanges between Ethan and his parents about the gun. So, jennifer, his mother allegedly wrote don't worry, I won't get mad at you about the gun.

Tayla: 8:03

And then, the day before the shooting, school officials met with the Crumbleys to discuss the concerning behavior and the disturbing content on social media. And instead of taking Ethan home and checking his bag actually I think it was the day of, wasn't it day of, that? They had had the meeting with the school that day. I have to quickly go verify but instead of taking what the teachers and the guidance counselors had told them about this concerning behavior, taking him home, talking about it, getting him help, they left him at school, didn't check any of his bag, they didn't check for a gun possession, they didn't do anything and he ended up shooting and killing a bunch of people. Yeah, so what are some other things from what you read today that led up to this shooting and their responsibility, and so we won't even talk about like them going on the run after, but um, kind of the lead up.

Sam: 9:01

Yeah, so from what I can remember, um, like one of the lead up, yeah, so from what I can remember, um, like one of the things that happened was, uh, he got in trouble with being caught with ammo at school and basically the mom told the son, just don't get caught. I don't know if you saw that part, and so it's like you know.

Tayla: 9:25

Just completely disregarding yeah.

Sam: 9:28

Yeah, and then something interesting from AFTA during the trial is did you know that they don't have the same lawyers?

Tayla: 9:37

The parents.

Sam: 9:37

The parents hired their own lawyers for themselves and gave him a public defender. So it's pretty, they didn't pay for their son's defender. Yeah, gave him a public defender.

Tayla: 9:45

So it's pretty, they didn't pay for their son's defender. Yeah, so it. I didn't know that.

Sam: 9:50

Yeah, as you kind of read through this, you kind of realize that they didn't. They knew their son was mentally ill and it seemed like almost they were hoping he would kill himself. Because you're trying to like add this whole up and you're like why yeah? Like it kind of seemed like they just didn't want to be parents. They didn't want to be parents and deal with this, and they were just kind of pushing him over the edge and providing him, like here's the tools to kill yourself.

Tayla: 10:14

Yeah, like in light of what he's doing days before, they're like oh, this seems like a good idea to go and purchase for our teenage son who is struggling.

Sam: 10:30

Clearly let's go and get him a gun like yeah, yeah. So yeah, I read some of the testimonies too. It was pretty.

Sam: 10:33

It's so sad because, you know, the victims are like 14 years old and kind of around that age and yeah, you know, you have parents that are talking about, you know, losing their children, um, and they're not even addressing the shooter in these testimonies, they're addressing the parents, and it was very clear how other parents felt, like you may not have wanted your son, you may not have cared about your son, but we cared about our children and you not only let us down and our children down, you let your son down, and so it seemed it was pretty obvious, you know, based on all the evidence, that this was someone that was struggling, was mentally ill and was deserved help.

Sam: 11:20

Yeah, he was pushed over the edge and you know it doesn't excuse what he ultimately did, but you have to also remember he's also a child.

Tayla: 11:30

Yeah, I just so many other options I don't know. It's sad to think about and I think that's what makes this case so interesting is, you know, with situations like this, where there are shootings, there's kind of mass killings you can't always predict and they're not always preventable, but oftentimes they are, and in this case, 100% certainly the whole thing was preventable, the entire thing. So many different decisions could have been made the entire time leading up to what happened. They could have gotten him counseling. They could have checked him in somewhere, especially if they didn't feel like they knew what to do with him and they felt like he was a danger to himself or to others, like go put him in in a hospital and get professionals to help him. They could have pulled him from school, even just that one day, to just like have a conversation, check if he's all right. They could have made a, a reasonable decision to not give him access to something with which he could cause harm. I mean, it almost is it's. It's like the opposite textbook of like everything not to do.

Sam: 12:39

They did yeah, well, that's. That's why, again, most people are based on the evidence, feel like they were pushing. It wasn't just negligence, you know it was that alone is yeah, they were just absent parents. They were like they're. They're bad people. It was bad parenting. Basically messed up. This kid sad so like. The father threatened the prosecutor multiple times.

Tayla: 13:05

So I've got to Like in the trial yeah.

Sam: 13:09

Here's some quotes by James yeah. So these are some of the quotes yeah, karen McDonald, you're going down. Go ahead, record this call, send it to Karen McDonald, tell her how James Crumbley is going to effing take her down. James Crumbley is going to F-ing take her down. He said this October 9th 2023, from a jail call, five months before the trial started.

Sam: 13:31

Wow, and then he said there will be retribution, believe me. He says in another call, december 23rd. And then in another call on the 20th, he says yeah, f-ing, karen McDonald, you're F-ing, you're F-ed when I get out. And then again on December 6th 2022, a year before the trial, he says well, she's going to be effing yeah effing sucking on effing hot rocks down in hell.

Sam: 13:56

soon, again, a jail call and then another one, january 3rd, just months before the you know went to trial. He said I am effing on a rampage, karen. Yes, karen McDonald, your ass is going down and you better be effing scared. So this guy is.

Tayla: 14:15

Dangerous? Yeah, so he's. That's a dangerous, unhinged person like, and again, how, how. How someone like this was able to purchase a gun is concerning in and of itself, never mind the lack accountability with their son's access to the gun. So this, this is a person that shouldn't really be in society, regardless of, like, this specific case.

Tayla: 14:46

But the problem is and this is perhaps my biased perception is that a lot of people maybe that's not a good way to put it a good number of people that I know personally that have guns.

Tayla: 15:03

I don't feel safe with the fact that they have them, based on, like me observing lack of coping mechanisms, me observing some more aggressive behaviors, lack of, like, full attachment to reality, like. It concerns me that a bunch of people, just like, literally just in my personal life, like, have access to guns. Now, that's maybe an inflammatory thing to say and it's not supposed to be like, up to my judgment of who should have a gun or not. It should be, I think, an impartial, objective system of deciding, but I don't think we have a good one right now and that's what concerns me. I think I'd be a lot less worried about it if I trusted the system in place already, because this person who would literally be so dumb enough to threaten a public prosecutor in a recorded line and literally say that's fine and think somehow things are going to go well for him, like that.

Sam: 15:59

He just had access to a gun and never mind the parented someone you know, that was a bit of a rant, but yeah, on kind of a side note, um it's, I promise it's got to do with this, here we go. This morning, um, I was chatting with Conrad about some of our childhood in South Africa and we were just kind of joking about how, like when you went over to a friend's house, you would be parented by that parent like full on. You know, like it's not the same here, at least in Utah.

Sam: 16:33

I haven't seen it at all like this, but like you would get into real trouble if you're at someone else's house and the parent and you behave badly. And you behave badly. It wasn't like the parents. Those parents would call your parents and then you guys figured out no, you would receive the same punishment as if you were their child yeah and you would have to eat the food that they made, or you'd be punished.

Sam: 16:52

Everything applies everything applies and everyone knew this, like it was, like all the parents knew like hey, you know, this is their house, you need to live by their rules, you need to follow them, and it's almost was. And so we kind of talked about how it's interesting that we had a very community driven. You know childhood and even though, like you know, you have a very strong family unit, it's almost kind of like most of the community was very much on hey, we're all parenting, we're all you know need to be in this and it's kind of like it takes a village to raise a child, kind of mentality and we're thinking like that doesn't happen here.

Sam: 17:26

It absolutely not. Because, like, I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people and parents getting in trouble for, like, disciplining someone else's children. That's unheard of.

Tayla: 17:36

It's unheard of yeah, so kind of draw the connection for me. Are you saying that?

Sam: 17:45

Yeah. So one of the things that this highlights is that community and that village is missing in the United States, where there could be more parental figures in children's lives if there was more of a village mentality, more of a community mentality, and not we're all just unique lone rangers going into this and you just, you know my children, my rules you know the. The schools can't teach you. You know this other parent can't parent you, you know. So I feel like there could be a lot more support systems available to children here, in the states, if there was more of a community mentality.

Tayla: 18:27

No, I totally agree, and I think the problem is that because, like, thinking of someone else parenting my child, I don't like that. I don't like that idea at all because I don't necessarily trust other people's parenting philosophies. So now I want to like draw the line because I think our experience is also with like maybe how we were parented by people and maybe like affect our, our lens on this. But I think people are perfectly willing to try and step in to the easy parts of parenting and not be a real community for the hard parts of parenting. And I think that's the problem is people are averse to people parenting their kids because typically, when people are quote unquote stepping into parent kids, it's lazy, like just hit them or just yell at them like they're doing the easy lazy things. That like doesn't actually help. But I do think that comes at a cost of like providing space to have people help you through the really powerful, positive parts of parenting that take a lot more work. Now I will say I have a really good friend, mariah, who our daughters are the same age and this is something that I see her do really well with our kids, which I like love and appreciate. I do think it's rare where, when my kids are with them and Ella's having a big tantrum and behaving badly, she is perfectly willing to step in and take Ella aside and have the discussion with her and talk through things and help her to regulate, rather than either just like sticking her on me or saying like that's absolutely unacceptable and like sending her away. And I think absolutely that kind of community is lacking.

Tayla: 20:12

But I think on top of that, when it comes to this case and the question of like, community and responsibility, I think the educators and the school and the guidance counselors are in a difficult situation and I always will be the first to say that we expect people in the public school sphere here in the United States, we expect way too much and give them very, very little.

Tayla: 20:34

So, knowing that, but at the same time, I think they did have a responsibility when they were seeing failure by the parents to take something seriously, to actually step in and be like hey, I see that you're not deciding to take your son home. We're drawing the line and we're saying you need to take him home and they didn't do that. And I understand why, because, again, it's not acceptable and these are probably actually horrible, scary parents that they didn't want to deal with and were maybe afraid to do that with. But I think it's worth it, as someone in the professional sphere when you're not like psychologists, like anyone that has that view to actually step into their sphere of the Venn diagram and actually fulfill that responsibility rather than being like afraid to do it.

Sam: 21:24

This brings up a very interesting thing that happened to us the other day when we think about the lack of resources in this area. So one of the things that would help teachers and, you know, community members to deal with situations like this would to have more resources that you can trust that we'll be able to manage and investigate and take action on like situations, like kind of like child you know child protective services, ask the right questions and do things regardless of like the fallback right or the difficulty.

Sam: 21:58

Yeah, but we have such a big gap in our mental health systems and programs here in the United States Think about what happened with us a couple of weeks ago so I don't think we've talked about this yet. Okay, so we were driving. Think we've talked about this yet Okay. So we were driving to go to, I think, like a birthday party for one of the kids at like a dinner, and while we're driving we saw someone that was out in the cold just wearing a T-shirt.

Sam: 22:24

That looked very lost, very confused and was just pacing backwards and forwards. Looked very agitated.

Sam: 22:28

Yeah, a teenager that looked very agitateditated and you could tell he was autistic or something. And we're just like, oh, is he okay? Is he waiting for someone to pick him up? Is this is in front of his house? And we just kind of kept driving. And then we're like I kept looking in the rear view mirror and I was like he's just still pacing and you're like, you know, should we do something? I was like, well, do you want to? You want to. And you're like yes.

Sam: 22:48

We're like okay, well, let's sit around, let's go talk to him and see if he's okay, we go and as we tried.

Tayla: 22:53

So the big thing was it's cold. It was very cold and he was just wearing a t-shirt with like one arm in his t-shirt. He looked cold, he looked uncomfortable.

Sam: 23:05

Yeah, tried to say something and he immediately walked away from us and then didn't say one thing yeah, just like seemed scared, yeah, and it seems, yeah, exactly, seemed scared, and so he walked, you know like half a block up the street and then just the same thing pacing, look confused, look lost and cold and so we're like okay, well, let's just sit here for a second and just see you know if he's getting still waiting for someone awesome neighbors.

Tayla: 23:28

If they know him, yeah well that's what happens.

Sam: 23:30

That guy literally came out. He's like, hey, do you know this kid? And we're like, no, we don't, in fact, we actually just want to make sure he's okay. And he's like, yeah, this is my house, I don't know who, who he is. And so we're like, okay, we'll, we'll.

Sam: 23:41

We told the the guy that we'll call the the non-emergency police, yeah, whatever that is, and that just was first of all, the fact that that's who we have to call is the freaking police, or something like this well, and that gave me anxiety because I was just like, like, especially once you started calling them, like how often it almost felt like they're pressing to see if this person was dangerous right which they like have to do. They have to do but it's almost like they kept pressing on it like do you see any weapons?

Tayla: 24:10

no, we did not see any weapons?

Sam: 24:11

okay, does he have his hands in his pocket? Can you see? You know they just kept going like no, he definitely doesn't have any weapons aggressive. He's definitely not aggressive, he's just scared, he's just a kid. But you know, like it was just over and over and over and over anyway.

Tayla: 24:23

So but that's because that's what they're supposed to do is protect.

Sam: 24:27

It's a hammer and a nail situation.

Tayla: 24:28

Yeah, for some reason we have to rely on them not just to do that, but they have the protocols and the processes for dangerous situations yeah, but we were just be like, hey, I don't know if this kid's lost, so you know he's out here in the cold, just pacing.

Sam: 24:41

He doesn't want to talk to us, so we don't want to freak him out yep, so anyways, he slowly keeps doing this routine, for, like I'd, say 30, 40 minutes, 30, 40 minutes and goes a quarter mile up up the hill we just kind of keep a distance keep a distance, yeah, see where he's at and then make sure he does it we all said I didn't know if he would run into the road and it was a busy road, yeah and it seemed like he wouldn't, but I wasn't sure.

Sam: 25:04

I wasn't sure if he, like, knew well enough to stay out of the road, but anyways we wait 20, 30 minutes while on the line, while they said, yeah, we're saying someone, just come, you know they'll come and make sure he's okay, you know, and kept them, kept them on the line and then eventually the kid like makes a beeline for like what seemed to us like a random house, because the way he was walking it did not seem like this was where he was going, and he just kind of like does a big turn and then straight into a house.

Sam: 25:33

We're like what the heck, okay. Well, either that's his house and he's, you know, finally figured out, or this is just what he does right or he got scared and walked and just decided to walk into a house, anyways the while, because we're still on the line the whole time and we're keeping them updated and they're like, okay, well, I've got the police, I've got the police officer, that's on the way to talk to you.

Tayla: 25:52

That was the crazy thing is like yeah, he wants to talk to you.

Sam: 25:56

So he went, we get transferred. And then he's like hey, so what's up? And we're like oh, we were told that you wanted to talk to us. And he's like okay, well, the operators? He literally was like no, the operator is kind of dumb, and blah, blah, blah.

Tayla: 26:06

He's like literally he was like no, he said the opposite to me, that like he wanted to talk to me yeah, he was kind of a jerk to the he was bit of an asshole, yeah we're like, okay, well, anyways, we just want to let you know.

Sam: 26:17

Like you know, he just walked into a house. We don't think there's anything wrong, but you know we don't know we don't know. You know how far away it's like. And then he said are you satisfied with the resolution? We're like oh what resolution?

Sam: 26:27

yeah, what? What's the resolution? He's like, well, are you satisfied? And we're like, well, I was like you're the expert here. I, I don't know. Is this something that you want to come check out? And and you, you know, do you want to make sure that this was his house? That he's safe and he's like no, you know, if he that's his, that's probably his house it's probably his house.

Tayla: 26:46

We would have gotten a call if he just walked in some random person's house by now and we're like probably, but like weren't you supposed to be on? And that's the thing is like we were waiting so long and I was like did you just never make your way this?

Sam: 26:59

way, you just like. Disregarded the call like so, fortunately, while we were there, I noticed like one of the neighbors was out to grab mail or something and I was like, hey, sorry to bother you, do you know your neighbors at all? And they're like, yeah, I was like, hey, so there's a kid and he's, you know, about 14 years old. He's got blonde hair, blah, blah, blah.

Tayla: 27:20

He's big, he's big.

Sam: 27:21

He's been walking up and down here it's freezing and he's just got just a shirt on. Do you do? You know they have a? Yeah, do they have a kid? Like like, oh, yeah, is he okay? You know, eventually, like it was like the response that we thought we'd get by going through, like you know the, the line like and so we had a discussion about like oh, yeah, so we know the kid and you know, every so often he'll, you know, do a a lap down to the bottom and back. And you know we told the neighbors and I was like, oh, you know, that's, you know I. We mentioned that the neighbor at the bottom had no clue who he was and he was concerned and like, oh, yeah, we'll make sure to, you know, maybe go a little bit further down and just explain the situation to him.

Sam: 27:58

Like oh, that's great, if we and what would it be nice would have been?

Tayla: 28:02

we could have documented this and told the the the lawn like so that, if it happens, someone else was concerned about him. They could be like oh, we actually, yeah, we know the kid, the parents are aware he's safe enough and this is a routine. But like the other thing, though, is like what we asked, what we did with the neighbors, what we did just actually checking that like this child is safe. Where he went should have been someone else's job, and the other thing is like it probably shouldn't have been, like there should have been someone else we could have called besides the police, besides the freaking police, yeah, and and that's.

Tayla: 28:37

I mean. We've talked about this thing on a couple other episodes about totally different topics. But that gap in like and this is why police officers are put in such difficult situations and I think it's got a large part to do with like, why they respond so badly to some situations. They're expected to not just be, like keepers of the peace and law enforcement, they're also now neighbor complaints, their mental illness breakdowns, like they're having to ds. They're not actually trained. They don't know how to deal with someone unless it's just like on the job experience, but that's. And we've had there's records of so many, I would say in particular black individuals that have been mentally ill, that have been killed or injured by police when the family called just for some help, when actually what ended up happening was not help, they. They treated a situation as like more dangerous than it was and people got hurt actually. But again, like, what else are they to do? They've only been trained to deescalate like violent situations. You know what I mean.

Sam: 29:38

Yeah, our, our police force is horribly trained. And that's not to be a dig at people that are on the police force, but just like you're explaining.

Tayla: 29:47

It's not their fault. They're not trained. Yeah.

Sam: 29:49

It's people that are on the police force but, just like you're explaining their fault, they're not trained. Well, it's, yeah, it's. You know the? The barrier of entry is pretty low in the united states and it's, it's a dangerous job, you know, in certain, especially in certain areas it's not that great paying usually so you know it doesn't attract, I feel, the right people for what we are putting on them.

Tayla: 30:09

Agreed, agreed, and I just, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a conundrum, right, because the lack of resources that they have doesn't excuse bad behavior by police officers, but it also, I feel like it does add some context to mistakes or fear-based decision making by police officers that result in accidents and bad things happen. And it just, you know, the police officers shouldn't be put in these situations, and neither should we like be forced to rely upon them for things they don't, that they're not supposed to be doing.

Sam: 30:46

I feel like what might have happened was we used to well, I say we, the united states, used to have a really um, strong and strict mental health arm, and when I say that it really was basically institutionalized, um kind of situations it's like prison yeah so it kind of like this is almost like the pendulum swing to where.

Sam: 31:10

It's kind of like we have nothing now. You know, it was like very I would I don't want to use a draconian, but it was very much like a hey, if there's like a homeless crazy person, it was like all right, ship that person off to the mental institution and that was it. He was off the streets and that was that was the program, right, and all those things got shut down. I believe in the 70s.

Tayla: 31:30

All those things yeah, and for good reason too, because the oversight and the abuse that happened in those places was unacceptable. But again, it's kind of like throwing the baby out with the bath water when it comes to like, okay, your implementation of this system is wrong, but it doesn't mean there isn't a need here that is being fulfilled, that we need to adjust and I agree like yeah, but back to james Crumbley yes, and jennifer pieces of garbage, I think.

Tayla: 32:00

Even I think, as, as you say, like it's not to absolve this kid of murdering a bunch of people indiscriminately, like there is no excuse for that.

Sam: 32:11

Yeah.

Tayla: 32:12

But it almost does feel like he was set up to fail, like he is the child in this situation and his parents are responsible. Now getting back to the actual case. Now, the parents are both. The verdict was guilty to both of them to manslaughter. This is the first time that parents have been held responsible for the actions of someone else.

Sam: 32:35

I just saw that there was another one. It was, but it wasn't. The charge wasn't manslaughter, it was negligence, negligence, homicide, I think it was the. It was something like that. No, I think it was like child negligence or something.

Tayla: 32:51

Yeah, they're not responsible for the death, but they are responsible for the child's action yeah, exactly so.

Sam: 32:58

It was still associated with selling or giving the kid or buying the kid a gun, but this one was negligence, whereas, like you're saying, this one, this was like, literally like, wasn't this the six-year-old that shot his teacher?

Tayla: 33:10

yeah, so that and that's recent too. Like these, these verdicts are very close together and, yeah, so the no one died, fortunately, in this situation, and it wasn't that the parents were the same as these parents, but they were. They were not as aware of they need as they needed to be like this six-year-old somehow had access to a gun and used it.

Sam: 33:31

And I think that's this. These things need to happen so that people take responsibility for letting people have access to deadly things. It's like, yeah, here are the keys to the car, kid, here's how you get in the car.

Tayla: 33:45

All right.

Sam: 33:45

And then the kid drives over a bunch of people.

Tayla: 33:47

Yeah, like you, you created that situation, but this is the first time that this is really happening, where you could be held responsible for something you didn't even do, or rather, your lack of doing something holds your response anyway, it's. In this case, it truly was. This kid killed all these people. You didn't, but we're gonna hold you in a part responsible for those actual deaths, even though people you didn't, but we're gonna hold you in a part responsible for those actual deaths even though you literally didn't do anything, yeah it was to contribute to them dying physically right yeah

Tayla: 34:18

it's just interesting and it does get murky, right, because there's a ton of really horrible people that are horrible despite having the best parents or normal parents, like. It's not, it's not always a parent's fault that someone becomes horrible. It's hard, it's hard to know, like, at what point, and that's the question, right, and that's the legal question, and I'm sure I think I was reading about how there is an appeals process and for sure the Crumblies will probably appeal their convictions and it's probably on the grounds of, like, how can we be responsible for something we didn't do?

Sam: 34:54

but it does, it does, it does pose a legal kind of conundrum well, it's kind of like the girl that she was found guilty for literally like pushing and encouraging the dude to kill himself and literally walked him through it and like you know, like as when he was backing out of it, she basically pushed him to keep going and to do it. Like it's the same sort of thing where it's like, yeah, she didn't actually physically kill him, but all her actions made him kill himself.

Tayla: 35:25

Yeah, so this is. You're talking about Michelle Carter, who, um was held. She had a guilty verdict as well for essentially I can't remember the exact, but it was either manslaughter or second degree homicide, something like that. But yeah, it wasn't just that she kept telling him to kill himself and encouraging him to do that. The clincher was that in the middle of him, kind of essentially, he used his truck to gas himself.

Tayla: 35:56

In the middle of him, kind of doing that, he was on the phone with her and he said I'm scared, I think I'm going to get out. And she said get back in the truck, do not get out. And he died as a result. He would have survived if she hadn't done that. But you're right, that was like landmark oh, you literally didn't kill him or do anything to harm him, but you did and you're going to be held responsible, even if it's not so tangible or so physical, like you will still be held responsible, and I think that's important for society, especially as, like just, things change. But it is a little bit like the lack of clarity is a little scary. Right, because I think you will. We will undoubtedly come across a case where a similar ruling is made in this situation.

Tayla: 36:41

It probably maybe shouldn't have been, and that's, that's always hard when it comes to like, setting precedent is just the way that it will perhaps be used in the wrong ways.

Sam: 36:53

Yeah, look, I think it's good. I feel like having cases ruled like this makes a change, because it incentivizes different behavior. Whereas you feel like you could get away with something, you know you can get away with certain actions. Hopefully this is just a oh, I can't get away with that. I can't do that. I need to oh, I need to be more careful with.

Tayla: 37:28

Yeah, I do think the verdict does send a strong message about parental responsibility and this is something I would ask you, because you've kind of mentioned that it helps to do that. Do you feel like the verdict and you kind of maybe had a little teaser on this earlier in the episode but do you feel like the verdict goes far enough when it comes to how would I put this holding parents accountable for their kids, this actions, this?

Sam: 37:50

one? Yeah, I think you know. Is it enough? That's hard to say. Do I feel like 10 to 15 years is enough? That's exceptionally hard to say. Do I feel like they deserve the guilty verdict and to get a significant sentence?

Tayla: 38:08

Yes, and they did get a significant sentence.

Tayla: 38:10

So I think this, this is, it's a good ruling yeah, I would agree, and I do think these parents made it astronomically easy to see their contributions. Yeah, it's. It's not one of those like, oh man, like this was a bad parenting day or this was a freak mistake, like there's demonstrably, or demonstrable, you know what I mean. There's, there's clear patterns in their behavior and parenting that has have resulted in in what happened. So, again, what kills me about this whole thing is that it was so preventable. The signs were so much more clear than they can't, than they usually are over a period of time over a period of time and there were many attempts at interventions.

Tayla: 38:56

Again, I do think a lot of people should have gone further and I think that's been something is like at what point are the school, the school officials, liable? I know that was a big question, right as it happened, and I do think people need to take more responsibility when they see concerning behavior. I think my mindset on this has changed with time and I think our episode on the troubled teen industry with Scott and Hannah really reinforced this idea to me that I would rather be safe than sorry, and that's what Hannah spoke about. Sorry, and that's what, like Hannah spoke about.

Tayla: 39:33

The role of CPS, you know, is to determine whether something is going wrong, and they often find that something isn't. So she urged people to not, if you're, if something seems off, like to report it, because if you're wrong and something really bad is going on and you just say nothing, then you're prolonging a really bad situation. It's better to say something and be wrong and have potentially protected someone then to like assume that it's actually just fine. I'm just going to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I do think it's the same with with kids and and violence in particular is if you are noticing violent tendencies. It's an important conversation to have and to figure out how to support the parents and the kids.

Tayla: 40:13

I think so. It's difficult. We've had a couple of interesting incidents with, like, just exposure to kids having access to guns, and that's something that I like about South Africa's laws is to have a gun license which everyone can. You have to demonstrate proficiency at using it, but you also have to show that you have safe storage and that you will use it, and I do think that should be an important part of gun laws here.

Tayla: 40:38

That isn't, and a lot of the gun accidents and injuries. They are accidents because kids just like happen to find a gun and not understand yeah, gun.

Sam: 40:49

So unfortunately gun culture here a lot of the times treats guns like a trophy, like an award, like this special reverent thing and it's it's it's kind of ridiculous like a status symbol at times and it should just be treated like a utility. You know it, it does a certain thing and you can use it for sports, you can use it for hunting and you can use it for self-defense.

Tayla: 41:15

And for killing people.

Sam: 41:16

Yeah, I mean all those things right. So it's just. I just feel like we've just got such a toxic gun culture here.

Tayla: 41:24

And it's not that guns in particular and gun ownership is toxic, but the culture of gun ownership in the united states is toxic yeah, I agree, and that's the hard thing to talk about because I don't know a lot of people will assume, oh, people don't have access to guns in other countries. We're like one of the last standing places where, like, we have our freedoms to bear arms. I'm like that's absolutely not true. So many people carry guns where we're from so many people, but we don't have the same mass gun violence. It's not like we don't have our problems, but that's not one of them. People just go to schools and shoot up kids. It just doesn't really happen and I think part of the reason is that culture around it Because we have the same access to guns, but we have some better gun control laws and better gun culture, and it is just an interesting like people feel very emotionally, personality wise, attached to being someone who is into guns. I don't know. Yeah, either way, there's been an interesting discussion. In my opinion, it will be interesting to see cases that follow this precedent, how they're applied in different cases, and I mean I hope there's very little. I just hope that we just don't have freaking mass shootings in schools. But either way, I think this was the right verdict and just is illuminating when it comes to determining responsibility with kids. Thanks for listening to the Babe.

Tayla: 42:52

What Do you Know About? Podcast.

Sam: 42:54

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