LGBTQIA+ Allyship | with Holly Harris

Navigating the complex maze of allyship can be as bewildering as my own unanticipated adventure at a Utah caucus. Join me and my special guest, Holly, who brings a treasure trove of insight from her sociology background and personal experiences with the queer community, as we unravel this tapestry. We'll transport you into a world where politics meets personal belief, where the choice of representatives over direct votes sparks a conversation about democracy's nuances and the critical need for diversity.

Embarking on this episode is akin to opening a door to a realm where language crafts sanctuaries and actions forge deep connections. Growing up with queer moms, Holly learned the profound impact of being an ally, from the simplest safety signals to the creation of genuinely supportive spaces. Hear stories that celebrate the joy of supporting individuals in their truest forms, and confront the hurdles allies face, including legislative challenges and the everyday difficulties encountered by LGBTQ+ individuals in family planning and ensuring their safety.

As we wind down, we invite you to contemplate the evolution of our relationships and ourselves. We discuss the importance of fostering an environment of curiosity and gentleness, and how this fosters growth. We examine the fine line between performative allyship and meaningful support, all while sharing a story of friendship and allyship that underscores the profound impact of support during life's transitions. Tune in and embrace the potential for future educational endeavors and the ongoing commitment to providing personalized, authentic support for the queer community.

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What do you know about the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo, Sam?

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:40

It was my first time being able to vote or participate or like go be involved in anything like that, so I was very excited Sam stayed with the kids so that I could go. I just barely made it in time and I was expecting I had done all this research about like all these different positions and who I was gonna vote for, and I was expecting to go in and like check off who I was voting for and leave. Oh no, not at all. What happened? Utah changed to Caucus this year instead of a presidential primary, and so actually a bunch of like 60 people in my precinct. We didn't vote for anyone. We literally voted for a chair and a coach, a who would then almost be like electoral votes to represent our precinct, and that was.

Tayla: 1:32

I'm like that is Wild and we don't know each other. Like a bunch of people were in a congregation together so they kind of knew each other, but I'm like I couldn't even nominate someone. Like they literally just like throwing out names. All of them were men, so that was annoying. So I like raised my hand, I'm like cute, could we have some women up there?

Tayla: 1:49

I don't know any of the women, but I would love some women and it really was like people were just kind of like asking questions of these people like where do you kind of align so that they could, but anyone could have said anything about, oh, I believe this or I believe that, and just been like nominated to be dead. It's for the precinct it was. It was fascinating and I Was part of like a more moderate group, so that was kind of cool. It actually was pretty kumbaya. It wasn't anything crazy, which apparently was not the case in a lot of other local precincts, but it was wild.

Holly: 2:26

Wow, that is wild, especially with like all the preparation that you did, like going into it knowing who you're gonna vote for and then Sharing up and being, like I can ask for a pair to this. I literally don't know you from Adam.

Tayla: 2:39

Yeah, like, literally, yeah, yeah, and so they whoever was not like voted in to be the delegates the two delegates from our precinct last night, that's who's gonna just like then vote for? Who knows, we didn't ask them. Who are you gonna vote for for Senate? Who are you like? They people just asked like are you more moderate when you stand on these certain issues, like, and they could vote for it.

Holly: 3:01

It's like a. It's like a mini electoral college.

Tayla: 3:05

Yeah like all of a sudden words, like very disorganized, though, like there's no yes, process like it was it was wild, but I felt very happy to be involved and like, okay, I, I'm here, at least cool. But it was not what I expected at all.

Holly: 3:24

Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, incredible, quite, quite, quite the moment, quite the experience. Yeah, truly well.

Tayla: 3:38

It was very American. Yeah, we'll see how this year goes.

Holly: 3:40

That's a laugh.

Tayla: 3:41

Literally.

Holly: 3:42

Oh, that's it. That's a great word for it, that's exactly.

Tayla: 3:47

It started with a prayer and I was like, wow, okay, I guess we're praying what? Yeah, oh, the caucus meeting started with oh it was just I didn't have like a problem with it, but it felt very weird, felt very weird, oh yeah so and you know, I just don't imagine that that's happening elsewhere.

Holly: 4:08

I in the country.

Tayla: 4:09

I mean, it's probably you know that me more places than you'd think, just because again America, but it's I.

Holly: 4:16

Was like no separation, like, do we say, the punch of allegiance to they did, they did. Yeah, literally literally did wait, oh yeah there's a prayer. Were there refreshments that were blessed.

Tayla: 4:41

No, there weren't the donations.

Holly: 4:52

Okay, quick question also how's the audio? Is it lagging? Am I like saying things delayed after you, or are we good?

Tayla: 5:00

It seems good to me. Seems good to me.

Holly: 5:03

Okay for those of you who are hearing another voice.

Tayla: 5:07

That's not Sam's voice. I'm gonna introduce you to our guests for the day. I will say this is our first episode that Sam is not on. Sam decided to babe out and go. He's actually super swamped with work and stuff and he Was happy to let me and Holly take it. So Holly's gonna be a babe today and I'm gonna let Holly introduce herself. Yeah, everyone who doesn't know her oh, Cool.

Holly: 5:36

Hi everyone, I'm Holly, let's see.

Tayla: 5:42

Tell us how I introduce myself.

Holly: 5:43

I yeah who I am, what I do. Let's see what do I do. Oh, okay, I'm Holly. I Grew up, I was raised in the L yes church. I know longer practice, so there's just a bit of that. I do have a queer mom's gay moms was raised with with them. There's a whole backstory. I do also have a dad, and in his wife, right. So I.

Holly: 6:11

But I so I've got three moms, I've got gay moms, I've got yeah, I've got three moms. You know, I Also identified as part of the queer community so and I'm sure that we can kind of get into that a little bit At some point. But yeah, I didn't if I was queer and Probably just like as a great umbrella term for all parts of my identity. Yeah, let's see, and I studied sociology at BYU, so I'm kind of trained as a sociologist, as someone who understands society and people's interactions with, with society and institutions therein and Right now for work, I am a researcher.

Holly: 6:52

I'm a social kind of social policy researcher is a great way to say that both qualitative and quantitative. So I'm the person who creates and sends and kind of quantitatively analyzes surveys. But also I'm the person who will sit down with you for an hour long interview and chat about your experiences and then kind of try to lift up the voices of the voices and experiences of the people that that are, you know, open to sharing their, their stories with me. So that's kind of that's what I do.

Tayla: 7:22

That's my intro for you.

Holly: 7:24

Well, I think so I like it. I like it quite a bit.

Tayla: 7:28

Good, but we're gonna talk today about Allyship, essentially. So I'm gonna do a little intro and we'll go from there. So one in four people in the US Know someone who is part of the LGBTQIA plus community, which means that likely any one of our listeners has someone close to you that could benefit from your support as an ally. So what does it mean exactly to be an ally? So it's, it's. We'll see if I do this justice. It's more than just saying that you support the community. It's about actively creating safe and inclusive spaces for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. So here are some Facts to do with the topic and we'll go from there. So studies show that workplaces with visible LGBTQIA plus ally programs have 20% higher Employee engagement, which demonstrates the positive impact allyship can have not just on individuals but entire communities. Research also indicates that having just one supportive adult ally can significantly reduce the risk of depression and suicidal thoughts among LGBTQIA plus youth. So which means that allyship can actually make a life changing and life-saving difference.

Tayla: 8:46

Allyship isn't just limited to individuals. As mentioned before, businesses, schools and organizations can also become allies by implementing inclusive policies, promoting diverse representation and actively challenging discrimination. So in this episode, I'm hoping that we delve deeper into the importance of allyship, kind of explore some practical steps that you can take to be a stronger advocate for your friends, family and colleagues, and also discuss the challenges and opportunities that come with being an ally and Talk about trying to navigate that pretty effectively. So, whether you're already an ally or just starting your journey, that's what we're gonna talk about today. So, babe Holly, what do you know?

Holly: 9:25

Yeah.

Tayla: 9:26

LGBTQIA plus allyship.

Holly: 9:30

Oh, what do I know, man? I guess we'll find out, yeah.

Tayla: 9:34

I would say I know a fair amount yeah so you, you at least for a good part of your adolescence. Right, you, you grew up with Queer moms, and so I'm curious if that is really like when your journey with allyship on that side came, or like how, when did you start kind of first Learning about the idea of allyship and and having it be important to you?

Holly: 10:08

Great question. Yeah, definitely started kind of in adolescence. So I, you know, I remember the kid going to like P flag events I'm trying to think of what the acronym is. I think it's like parents, family, friends of lesbian and gay. So you know, I think that we went to maybe a couple of those. But yeah, I, I think that I was very. I became Aware in Adolescence of LGBTQ individuals.

Holly: 10:42

You know things to maybe avoid saying. You know different, like slurs, right, but maybe you know, just talk about like hey, those are these slurs. And really I think, because of my mom's mom's Experiences being queer and you know I was kind of raised in a very conservative part of Washington state that just some of the experiences that they had and and how that, how that affected them, you know, and I think that they also tried to raise myself and my siblings to be Aware of others. How we come across to others, you know, like Are, are you coming across as rude? Are you coming across as you know this, that or the other, or are you being welcoming? You know, are you being aware? Are you trying to reach?

Tayla: 11:30

out Maybe.

Holly: 11:35

Yeah, yeah, just kind of being mindful of that. So, yeah, I would say that my kind of allyship journey started then and I think that I am Identified as an ally, obviously until I realized that I too am gay. But I, I think that, you know, I was able to kind of Start to Safety signal and we can chat a bit more about kind of what that looks like. I think that I was able to safety signal, or rather Show people hey, I'm someone that you could talk to, someone that you could reach out to if you're queer, by sharing hey, yeah, look, I've got gay mom. And people usually saw that as like, oh, you could be a safe person to chat with, to come out to, to, you know, ask questions about, and things like that. So Okay.

Tayla: 12:28

So I want to, I want to learn more about that, because I feel like that's something that I have observed People do without realizing exactly what it is maybe not just for this, but like in other things, like Maybe taboo beliefs or things like that where people kind of do that and I'm like oh okay, I can speak to that person. Yeah, I'd love to know just more.

Holly: 12:53

More. Just to be sure I'm understanding you want to learn, learn more about, like safety signaling or yeah cool.

Holly: 13:00

Yeah, safety signaling is can be verbal or nonverbal kind of signs to Others that you're a safe person to talk to about a certain topic. So for LGBTQ allyship, that might be, you know, a rainbow pin that you wear. You know that's a. That's a very clear nonverbal safety signal thing. Like I'm aware of the queer community, you know, I'm aware that they might not be able to take up a ton of space and so I'm just gonna have this little pin on my lanyard or my backpack or, you know, at church, maybe my blazer or something like that, right, and I think that a great verbal safety signal I mean could be, could be a myriad of things.

Holly: 13:48

You know, like some of my colleagues are like, oh yeah, I was literally chatted with a colleague today who was like, oh yeah, I'm going up on a trip, I'm gonna go hang out with my friend and her new partner and she hasn't ever done this before, so I'm excited to do that with the both of them and you know, had kind of just Said very casually, oh yeah, my friend and, you know, her Female or feel presenting a partner, you know, and they're in a queer relationship, right, it was like very evident, but it was pretty casual. It wasn't like I Want you to know.

Holly: 14:24

I gave friends right so you could be my, I can be your friend too, you know, but just like being like very natural about it. So I think that there are some verbal things or you know, I think that something that you've done kind of in you know, you, I feel like you, you've kind of been there for a lot of the key points of my kind of identity journey. But you know, something that that you've done is just like ask about my experience. You know how's it going. You know, asking like hey, is this something that I can't ask about? You know, is this something that? No, just like that you're willing to chat about?

Holly: 15:03

And I think that you've made that very clear like, yeah, like I'm someone that you can talk to about this, and so I think that there's some some ways to do that. And then, or you know, like I've had, like I've had, family members who have been like oh yeah, my friend whose sibling is queer said this or that or the other. I'm like, oh great, they're like kind of aware of you know other queer people, you know things like that. So just kind of kind of that awareness and the way that they talk about those queer people, you know, is it, is it kind of is it affirming language, is it positive language, things like that.

Tayla: 15:43

Yeah, that's something I've been thinking a lot about. Is the excitement that I want to bring to like discussions about this? Because I feel like same thing, you know, being raised where, like there was a religious question around acceptance of queerness, things like that, and I always I think my value is always like I don't think it matters and like I'm very happy for people to be happy with who they want to be with. But I think I had this dissonance between that belief that I had with my values and like kind of what I felt, like I like how much, how how much of an ally or how supportive I could really be, and so I do think that in the past I've like tackled conversations like this in maybe more of a neutral way.

Tayla: 16:33

I don't I hope that I haven't done that negatively, but it has been more neutral. And that's like I've just determined for myself eat recently in the last few months. That that's not enough for me, like I don't want that for someone I don't want neutrality.

Tayla: 16:46

I just want like pure excitement, pure happiness for them when we talk about like, who they're dating, or if they're just excited to understand themselves better in a certain way. And I do think that makes such a difference because it's so easy to just flip the coin and be like how would I want someone react, to react when I, like, have found someone really important to me? Would it be with neutrality? Like no or like reluctant support. No, that's not that that wouldn't make me feel very cared about or supported.

Holly: 17:20

Yeah, definitely. I think that there's. We all want kind of an unadulterated love for an excitement for our lives and our experiences, and it's you can't have conditions when you offer that unadulterated love. Right, it's unadulterated, it's unconditioned, it's yeah, and that joint excitement and I think that that's something that a lot of times people can sense is that you know, do you have conditions on the love that you're offering me, on the support and the joy that we're sharing in? So you're awesome. I think that's great. Yeah, I'm a fan.

Tayla: 18:04

Thank you. I'm curious if your thoughts, or maybe your idea of allyship shifted when you started realizing that, like you, were actually a part of the community that you were trying to be an ally for, or at least what things you noticed about that shift.

Holly: 18:24

Yeah, I would definitely say so. I think that allyship for me is, you know, like I think that one it's evolving right the kind of the things that I need from my people. We're always, we're constantly learning. You know the things that we need and how to ask for them, right? So I think that at this point in my life, I'm realizing that allyship for me means that I'm allowed to take up space, however that looks, you know, if that's, if that's, you know, bringing a significant other home for a holiday, you know. Or if that is, you know, exploring different pronouns to use, if that is, you know, saying, hey, I had this really weird interaction, I would call this a microaggression and like I really just need to unpack it with someone, like can I call you and tell you about this, because they just sucked. You know, those are the things that I feel like I'm meeting more and more.

Holly: 19:30

I think that you know, to kind of tie it back into who, kind of what you were, kind of the political tone we said at the beginning, you know, I think that I know I don't necessarily I'm not requiring of it of my friends, but knowing that they are aware of the issues that impact LGBTQ plus community. There are a ton of anti-LGBTQ bills in legislation in states and federally and, honestly, a lot of the times, you know street counterparts, they just these bills won't affect them. They just don't. But they do affect me, they affect my community and so I can still, you know, be loving toward, you know, maybe my family who vote differently. But I might not choose friends who vote anti-LGBTQ ways just because I don't have the energy for that. I need them to to accept me better than that.

Tayla: 20:37

Yeah, I went to a work conference a couple of weeks ago in Las Vegas and was speaking to one of the leaders at the company I work for, and she's been married to her wife for a long time I think, like maybe 2008,. I'm trying to remember it was right around when she could be married and she had just gotten a promotion to a different role and that is gonna, you know, free up her and her wife to move to another. They're in California right now to move somewhere else, cheaper and closer to family, and they're planning on starting a family. It was very cool. I just like loved learning about family planning in a gay relationship and they're planning on being pregnant together at the same time and I was like that is so dope, but also like a lot.

Tayla: 21:28

Either way, I like loved learning. I was like, wow, the possibilities, you know. But she brought up something because I was like where do you think you guys are gonna go? Do you think you're gonna move here, where you've told me your brother lives, or whatever? And she was like you know, we're kind of scared to leave because we don't know if, like, our marriage will continue to be honored, or our parental rights will be honored like we don't know.

Tayla: 21:53

Everything's so changing, especially right now that like we're nervous to move to a location where, like their family unit might not be recognized, or at least might that recognition might change, and I just thought, is that still happening? Like I know?

Tayla: 22:12

I know it is, but I just it really kind of like made that real, like the concepts that I've known, that, like the ramifications of something like this. I was just like man. For someone to still have to like choose a state that would recognize like a legally binding decision is crazy to me and I hate that so much. But it really did help me to be like wow again.

Tayla: 22:37

As you said, like a lot of these things I've never had to think about, I've never had to worry about or wonder about and there's so much privilege that comes with that and trying to figure out how to be an ally, but also someone that, like, protects that right for them. Like, can you imagine a world in which their kids are, however much old, and all of a sudden, like a mom couldn't come to their child's bedside in the hospital because, like, that's unacceptable to me? But it's something that people in the community, it's a prospect they have to realistically face, at least on a theoretical level, and worry about and plan for.

Holly: 23:21

Yeah, yeah, that's the. That's like it's pretty poignant, right, you know, and I feel like so. I work remotely, as you know, and put for the listeners I work remotely and so when I, when I thought about moving places and kind of my next steps, I have absolutely googled what are the safest cities for LGBTQ individuals? What cities have the most resources for LGBTQ plus individuals? What you know and like, what's what's going on in the communities there that are kind of making them safe, that are allowing them resources, things like that, and it's it's definitely a different factor you know to consider. You know, am I, where am I, where am I going to be safe? You know, physically and emotionally and where I want to move based on, you know, the way that I look, the way that I present and how I interact with the world. Yeah, anyways.

Tayla: 24:31

So what are some of the biggest challenges that you see about being an effective ally, kind of in light of that?

Holly: 24:41

Mm, biggest challenges I see in being an effective ally. I think that the two that come to mind and are just like a lack of education, a lack of understanding, a lack of proximity, you know. So if you don't know people who are and I say this loosely, so maybe if, if you haven't had conversations with someone who is LGBTQIA plus, you know queer in some way, if you haven't had conversations with them about their experiences, it's hard to know their experiences right.

Holly: 25:23

Yeah, like, how do you get into that space? And I think that, yeah, seeking education is a big one. You know that might be listening to this podcast, that might be reading articles, that might be reading books and things like that. Until you feel safe enough to to ask maybe a friend like, hey, I've been doing, you know these things. I've been trying to understand stories of LGBTQ individuals. But really what matters most to me is understanding you, because I don't care about this author the same way that I care about you and I want to know what your story is like. Would you mind sitting down to tell me your story at some point?

Holly: 26:06

So I think that, like a lack of proximity, a lack of knowledge and even like knowing how to address that is is tricky. What was the other one Biggest challenge is to be an effective ally. Oh, that's the other one is like I would say that the second biggest thing is making it about you like your ally ship actually isn't about you like, and that's the whole point. But it's not about like. It's not about you and your values and what makes you feel comfortable Like your ally ship isn't about your comfort at all. It's about the accessibility and comfort and livelihood of you know the people that you interact with honestly, probably on a day to day. It's about week to week basis. It's about them and I think that if we kind of say it's okay just for this minute to like elevate their values and their you know stories and narrative above my own, it's okay to be uncomfortable for a minute. That's the mean that I have to be a long term moment you know, but you could say for a minute, let's.

Holly: 27:19

I really do want to elevate your voice and your experience and your comfort over my own. I think that that's maybe a very general way to answer that question.

Tayla: 27:29

No, no, it was great, very specific and, as you were speaking, it made me think of you know, because I, my, my area of study was human rights focused and I just saw this over and over again that, like the, the only way that people oppress other people in the ways that they do is because the people they're oppressing have been dehumanized to them Right, and the antidote to dehumanization is empathy and understanding, and that that comes with proximity, as you said, and it just made so much sense.

Tayla: 28:05

And I do think that if you have, if you're noticing dehumanizing of another side and maybe like a way to like put this in my mind is, you know, often with maybe some more conservative people, I can start to maybe lump them, dehumanize them, make them less people, less human, and think of them more as an idea, and that's not a good way to navigate relationships and understanding of people that identify that way.

Tayla: 28:38

And the moment you start talking to people that identify that way, that's when you really learn how to still disagree but in a way that is humanizing, that is like respectful, and you'll still come across people that when you have that one on one interaction, it'll be bad and it'll be a good representation of what you've lumped them to be, but you can treat that as this person and rather than like a group or demographic of people, and so I just think exposure is huge and it's so easy to do these days, like it's not hard, to go follow influencers in the community and learn, like they're. It's so readily available to like expose yourself with a world of technology and social media to people in this community and to really learn about them. I mean that's, I'm a huge fan of Queer Eye.

Tayla: 29:28

Yeah, so many reasons, so many reasons. It just makes me feel so good and happy and like almost on a spiritual level, I just feel like happy watching it and uplifted watching it. But I love that, like people that I know in my life that are not necessarily allies like love the show as well, and it's changed how they view the community and that's the whole point of the show, right, but the point is sorry this is really long-winded, but the point is that it's so readily available to, to expose yourself to the community and to humanize it to yourself.

Tayla: 30:03

If you're willing to like, take the steps rather than waiting for, like, someone that's from the community to pop into your life and I think, preparing ahead of time so that that that exposure or that that the beginning of that relationship starts the way that it should, rather than practicing, you know, on people, is an important thing to think about as well. Totally.

Holly: 30:26

Totally. Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought in there's like the humanizing aspect. I think that, talking about sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, there's a lot of dehumanizing narratives around it's all about sex or it's unnatural and things like that. And I think that if you just pause for a second and say you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think through this, you know, and I'm gonna take those narratives out of it and I'm gonna think you know, what is what? What are queer people facing? You know, just just brainstorm. What are queer people facing on a daily basis and probably facing stress at work. Maybe they're facing stress because they can't get work, you know. Maybe they're, like you said, looking up different places to move that are safer enclaves for their life and their families. You know different things like that. And I think that if there's a bit of a moment of pause to say again, this isn't about me, these aren't about the dehumanizing narrative. Let's just say what are these narratives that are negative? This, you know, this might be causing me to have a dehumanized, like you said, idea of you know this group of people, of who queer people are, but really, at the end of the day, it's that there are plenty of reasons and plenty of ways to humanize, I think as well.

Holly: 32:01

Just to kind of what you were saying, like preparing for maybe that first kind of interaction that you have, maybe even the second or third, yeah, then they're not necessarily going to be perfect, and perfection isn't the expectation. Queer people are not necessarily saying I expect you to be perfect. Are they going to come away with maybe a thing or two that you said and they're going to go text their friend and be like, overall, the interaction is good, but like there is something that like, like they said it, like was it actually like my faith? But like, maybe we'll talk about it again another time. It's not a big deal and that's fine. You know we have support systems for that.

Holly: 32:41

Hopefully I shouldn't speak for all queer people. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. You know, I definitely have that support system at this point in my life, but I'm really grateful for that. But I would also say that like light recognizes light and love recognizes love. Like, if you're coming to someone with like light and love in your heart to say I don't get it and I want to like, please help me and you you come like humbly bearing yourself to them and saying that like they will meet your vulnerability with something if it's truly genuine. You know, and I really believe that, about all interactions and all people and all hard conversations and all you know, moments of discomfort, things like that. Like I really do believe that light shows up for light and if you offer that to someone instead of you know tension and kind of maybe heat and kind of an anger or you know, things like that can tension, I think that really the response will be positive, even if it's not perfect.

Tayla: 33:56

Yeah, I love what you said. I recently went down to watch my brother in a musical. He's studied theater at SUU and he's always been a theater kid and I just I love him so much, he's the best, and shout out to him. I shout out to him and he the musical was the prom musical and I was so excited because it's it's such a great musical for so many reasons. But I had remembered watching the Netflix movie that came out. That was my first exposure to the musical a few years ago and I remembered really liking it. But I feel like I've changed so much since then too. I was excited to just watch it with with fresh eyes and a fresh perspective, and I was going to drive down with some family members that were going to go down to watch and those family members were told what the content of the musical was and they decided to not go because of that and.

Tayla: 34:53

I was so upset because it just like was the people that decided not to go really could have used going, like they really needed the message of the musical, and so I just hated that. And it's very rare that, like with this specific family members that I step on toes and usually just let people be, but I like texted them and I was like I just don't understand why you would put this intangible principle above your support for, like Dean, my brother, which is just in a musical.

Tayla: 35:29

He's just in a musical. This is what he does and what he loves to do and like. That's why you're supposed to be going, but because of this perceived belief like you won't go and support him. I was so frustrated by that and sat in the musical, loved it. Took my four-year-old because I was like, all right, I wasn't going to take her because there's gonna be a lot of work to take four-year-old, three hours drive and sit.

Tayla: 35:52

But I took her and she loved it so much and I was watching the scene if you guys haven't watched the musical like you have to. It's so good, the scene where she's singing essentially about her experience and about how she's learned to love like her heart, and I just like wept because I just thought to myself she shouldn't have had to go such a hard road to get to that point about herself. And I feel, like a lot of people in the community, I love that they do. I love that they get to a place of like self-love and true acceptance.

Tayla: 36:34

But I hate that it takes if you have to like wade through so much crap to get to that point. And I thought to myself it just takes one freaking generation to make this like not a thing. It just takes like one generation. And I just thought to myself like I'm just not going to accept this in my sphere, like you can't control other people, but I just, you know I often and I feel like new in my like fervor for allyship, definitely, and so I feel out of place a lot of the time. But I, my emotions are there and I have definitely been met with so much grace from everyone from the community and it doesn't take much like that's what I've learned. It really doesn't take a lot.

Holly: 37:20

It, just as you said, takes just like trying caring, you know yeah but yeah, the stuff just makes me so mad yeah, and, and that totally makes sense, you know, especially because I I mean, I know that you're a big, you're a big family person too. You know you want to be able to just show up and support your family, like no matter what, and and want them to feel that support and love. But then, yeah, just that, that wrestling, right, that a lot of LGBTQ people face and trying to figure out, you know, like, why am I not normal, so to speak? You know, why do I not want to go on dates for people who are maybe asexual? Why do you know, why do I really just not not care? Yeah, and that's that's not to speak for for them, but just as an example, right. Or you know, like for me, I'm like, and why do I like want all the attention of this? Like one friend that's a girl, like that's kind of different, like why am I waiting for her to like text me all day? That's like, it's like different.

Holly: 38:33

You know, and there's, like you said, there there is a lot of wrestling and and the hope is is that, yeah, lgbtq I plus people will will kind of kind of find that love for themselves. But but, yeah, yeah, definitely some wrestling. I'm glad that you've been met with a lot of grace. I think that a lot of that comes from you know we've, we've done the wrestle. So like you're you're starting to engage, all right cool, like you're not gonna get it right, because you know, you know, I know I didn't get it right, not a first that I, like men, did not get that right. You know what I mean and so, uh, yeah, like I think that I'm glad you've been met with a lot of grace yeah me too, I'm grateful for it.

Holly: 39:20

I'm wondering, yeah, yeah, and I and honestly I do think that that is the vast majority of experiences I've wondered to kind of ask, like, is there anything that's, I guess, like been a catalyst for this increased fervor for LGBTQ allyship? That you're open to sharing.

Tayla: 39:47

Yeah, that's a good question.

Holly: 39:48

Yours to share. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a call in, Tayla. I'm calling you in, not leaving you out.

Tayla: 40:00

I think two things. One is that I've just I've been doing a lot of work to try and align my values with my beliefs, I guess, and just like get rid of a lot of the dissonance that I have put myself through.

Tayla: 40:17

Oh yeah, it is to say the least, but that has made me. I've kind of essentially unshackled myself from the hesitation, any hesitation that I felt and confusion that I felt about allyship. So that's one and two. I've had two kids and I have no idea who they will be, who they will love. I have no idea. But I just I'm obsessed with them and they deserve everything, no matter what it is that they end up doing or what it is who it is that they end up loving, and I don't want that to ever be a question for them, whether that's whether they're a part of the community or not. They're the most important thing to me and they could be they very, very well could be, and I want that to be a happy thing for me, like to just be there for them and be a part of everything about them, rather than like them to fear that.

Tayla: 41:20

It's something hard for me. Like to not be thinking of like how, how do I feel? Like mom will feel about this? Will this be difficult for her? And rather can focus on like themselves and just know that I'm a constant for them and I think just like having that be so tangible with my own kids has made that easy to be like other people's kids.

Tayla: 41:41

Everyone, like you know, like my kids obviously I'm way more attached to them because they're mine, but every kid deserves that.

Tayla: 41:50

Every kid does. And so I'm just thinking a lot more about it and just trying to be loud, because I am very much someone who, with my own stuff, it's hard for me to stick up for myself, but it's easy for me to stick up for other people and I'm hoping that, for people who feel the same way that, like it's hard to fight for themselves and stick up for themselves, that I can like be abrasive and loud in a way that maybe they don't feel safe to do, but I just I do. I feel like my intentions are not really matching up with, like, my skill or my bandwidth and that's like fine, I'm a trainer by trade and so I'm like that's something you can work on and practice that. But yeah, I felt just a huge pull and like the more again it's exposure, right, I've re-exposed myself to this play and to these people that these things are affecting and that's made me be like unacceptable absolutely not, you know, and that's been good for me.

Tayla: 42:49

It's been really good for me.

Holly: 42:54

Yeah, a lot of work, a lot of, I think that I don't know.

Holly: 43:03

I think that being motivated by the love that you have for your kids and like your values is just so, just grounding, I imagine, kind of in this process, and I think it's so, so beautiful, because I think that it's hard. You know, in my experience, you know, you were saying I never would want them to worry about my experience with who they are, and you said that I was like, yeah, I do that, I do that all the time. I probably do that daily, you know, worry about how, how am I taking up space and how is it affecting someone else, you know, and maybe I'll just make myself a little bit smaller so that they can take up however much space that I really want for myself. I want that kind of space for myself, and so I think I allow it for others more than I allow it for myself, and so I, from all children everywhere, Tayla, thank you for you know, but really I think it's really a beautiful, a beautiful sentiment because it's it's a very real daily struggle to worry about.

Holly: 44:31

Can I tell them who I am and will they still love me? And that is those are. Those are questions that are asked more often than they should be, so yeah, I hate that for you, I hate that for. Thanks and I want.

Tayla: 44:51

I want more for you and I think I think you've done a great job surrounding yourself with people, from what I know, because I've been exposed to your friends like your, your people, a few times and I've loved just watching it, because they're like you and I. We've been friends for years at this point, which is weird to think about, but I feel like for a while I kind of watched you give so much to relationships where, like, you just weren't getting that back, and I hated that for you because you deserved it or like you deserve someone to be like as obsessive and as kind and as available as you are.

Tayla: 45:32

And that's always a process and people go through cycles and stuff, but I, I love that. I feel like. Well, let me ask you like, how do you feel? Like kind of stepping into your identity more has exposed you or enabled you to like form those connections better?

Holly: 45:55

Yeah, totally, totally yeah, and yes, I think that I most myself with the people who give me the most space, who hold space for all of me. You know, I think that you kind of mentioned before before at the very beginning, Tayla, like, yeah, like, even if it's you know, people who kind of open a conversation about maybe more taboo topics or things like that. Right, like it's those kind of people where I'm like, oh, I can run to you with literally anything and and you're just going to accept me, you're going to let me. You know, like I said, like explore pronouns, yeah, I'm like running to you to talk about this.

Holly: 46:44

You know, like my friends who are maybe in more like the non binary space, like I'm totally chatting with them about that kind of stuff or friends with really like some intersectional identities, you know, like I'm chatting with them about their experiences and about mine and you know, maybe my intersection is kind of being in this you know, gender queer, slash, gay. You know it's both sexual orientation and gender identity for me or, you know, but also definitely at one point it was being queer and, you know, actively practicing in the church. That was huge for me. You know there's so many different, I don't know. Just like, yeah, experiences there, that like when I can really show up fully as myself, I can connect better with those people, 100%, absolutely, and I think that the just like the mutual understanding grows and the empathy grows right.

Holly: 47:49

Yeah, yeah, I would say which, which, yeah, which, I think is what relationships are built from.

Tayla: 47:55

So yeah, yeah, I was just. I was literally just about to say like even I would say like, my closest friends and the friends that I love the most and that I feel love from the most are the friends that not only like, are safe for me and provide space for me and accept me, but also that allow me to evolve and like don't hold me to, like they're, they want to help me through, like the growing pains of changing, which is just inevitable, and so I feel like that's probably something that's important for allies with the community too is. I feel like probably and I've observed this that identities and like thoughts on who someone is and how they identify and who they love, like that can evolve and change over time, and I feel like it's probably important to provide, like a lot of space and support and enthusiasm for that as well, and not hold someone to who they felt like they were a couple years ago or even a couple months ago.

Holly: 49:00

Yeah, totally yeah. Yeah, I think that, like some of the biggest things that I've learned in the last couple years get through a handful of different experiences is just like curiosity and gentleness, right, Like that's how, like really you let someone grow and evolve in a relationship and a friendship, you know, in any sort of kind of connection that you have with someone, is just being like very gentle with them. You know, like we don't need, like you don't need, to be harsh, but just like very soft, you know, and very curious, and you know asking questions, Like it's it's better to ask questions about someone in their experience. You know your queer friend or queer kid or whatever ask questions about their experience more than being silent about it and having no curiosity. But I think that, yeah, those, those are two things that have been been on my mind a lot about and I think that they're really kind of key ingredients to kind of that evolution.

Tayla: 50:14

It's a great slogan and tattoo and everything I'm so much curiosity and gentleness.

Holly: 50:20

Oh yeah, no, I'm, I'm, yes, I'm, I'm designing, I'm thinking about where I want them to go, but I just haven't decided yet. But I 100% agree and, yeah, and stay tuned for more on that. But I, I definitely want, I've considered just like down down, both forms, like curiosity on one and gentleness down the other, and being like all right, this is how we're interacting with the world and hopefully how I'm interacting with myself too. You know, you gotta gotta give yourself gentleness as well. Why are we not gentle with ourselves? Get into that A whole, a whole other part of that. Gabe, what do you know about being gentle with yourself? Nothing, nothing, no, that's not you, I think.

Tayla: 51:11

No, that's such a great thought and definitely I can't wait to see what you come up with when you, when you kind of blend on an idea for tattoos. But I'm going to think about that a lot. Now, one thing I did want to ask you a bit about, because this is something that I've tried to be more conscious of. When it comes to like stepping into allyship and also like things like anti-racism is like performative allyship or performative anti-racism. That's something that I feel like was it was more tangible to me, like during 2020, 2021, like the, the big anti-racism movements that happened, and then the performative nature of some anti-racism that I did see. It was I was. It was the first time that I think I really realized that like it happened as often as it did and that like I have done it without realizing that that's what I'm doing. So I'm curious when it comes to like performative allyship.

Tayla: 52:12

How can we make sure that that's not what's happening? Or or maybe ways to recognize if it is and to pivot?

Holly: 52:22

I think that. I think that performative allyship is allyship that makes you feel good about you. If you're doing something because it makes you feel good about yourself, or because you feel like it's, yes, stroking your own ego, or it checks a box, or you know it's really not actually impacting yeah, exactly, it's not actually like impacting the community that you're trying to serve than like it's probably performative and it's about you, right?

Holly: 52:54

So that means that you're posting something on Instagram because it's about you and that's what it is.

Holly: 53:01

If you're posting something on Instagram because you're genuinely trying to share it with the people that you know, you know and love, and probably coupling it with some sort of other activity, you know, I think that we hide behind our screens a lot in performative allyship. That's just me and that's also my experience when I perform allyship. But I'm not actually being an ally, right. Like there's a lot of, you know, hiding behind screens, which I mean. But also, but the other, the flip side of that same coin is that well, that's safety signal, maybe that safety signal to someone else. So I'm not saying don't share on Instagram, right, and that's not what I'm saying at all. There definitely is safety signaling there and it actually that's a big time thing. So again, I'm not putting the kibosh on that, but I think that if you're allyship is about you, then it's performative and I think that's the best way to figure it out is if it's about your, your own ego and make yourself feel good.

Tayla: 54:04

Sounds like it requires a lot of like true self-honesty, introspection.

Holly: 54:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think that there's space for you know some both ands where it's like, yes, this is for me to feel good and maybe I'm hoping that it's safety signaled and what else am I going to do about it? Yeah, I think that, like you know, greatest allyship is just like really webs, webs of connection to like real people that you really know and just showing up for them, at least in my experience, and maybe that's just the way that I do activism and interact in that way, you know, is I really just try to connect with the real people that I know and whose lives are impacted by, you know, different experiences. I think that there's, you know, but there's also kind of activism in terms of, yeah, like, am I voting against gender neutral bathrooms? Because how could anyone ever be gender neutral? And that's unnatural.

Holly: 55:20

Or if I'm in a store or on a road trip which happens, I've got a P on the middle of my long ass road trip and I walk into the women's bathroom and people stare Absolutely 100%, they do. Doesn't make me feel comfortable. I'm literally just trying to like not be my pants in the middle of the car on my long road trip, you know, and so, like then it's actually probably me who feels not to say that, you know, maybe these women don't feel safe I'm not trying to say that in their experience but I'm also not feeling safe in those spaces, right, like, and so that's definitely like a very real experience and again, like makes a I don't know, I don't know. I just think that like there's some, there's allyships that can be done, I guess, outside of just person-to-person interactions is the point I was trying to make there. Maybe I got lost along the way saying, yeah, just literally, let me pee and pee. Yeah, like I just need a whiz, like truly Like basic human needs would be nice.

Holly: 56:36

Yeah, truly, I'm like, if, like, I'm sitting here washing my hands like just what, you'd rather me just walk out? I don't think so, literally, literally. I'd love to hear a time.

Tayla: 56:49

I think we, we, we. I'm like I want to talk for so much longer, but a couple of things I'd like to hear about.

Holly: 56:58

We can do a follow-up, yeah, we would.

Tayla: 57:00

I would love to do that. Maybe we can get Sam to be less busy and join us for that one.

Holly: 57:04

I feel like that would be great. Yes, come on, sam, sending love to Sam.

Tayla: 57:08

I know Always.

Holly: 57:09

So good.

Tayla: 57:10

But I'd love to hear if you have one, a time where you've either someone acted as an ally to you and it impacted you, or when you observed someone being an ally to someone else that that was impactful. I just love to hear about that and then maybe kind of your hopes for the future the future of allyship, I guess and how do you think things continue to evolve and support the community?

Holly: 57:40

Yeah, yeah, thanks, man. Honestly, I've got like a handful right off the top of my head which is good. Yeah, that is good, that is great news. I will say. I think that you know my, my best friends are allies. So I'm like thinking through all my besties and I'm like, well, there's this time and then and he did this, and then there's this time and like she did this, and there's that one time and like they totally just let me do this. You know, or you know, they listened to me, they did this for me, you know, things like that.

Holly: 58:14

I think that, like, some of the greatest acts of the allyship have been preceded by smaller ones, right? So like, like I had a really negative experience one time and someone said something that was Just kind of disgusting. Frankly, it was just like really gross and I was just like really taken aback and and it still like just gets me all worked up like I. It was just a very, very, very bad experience and Me being able to call my friends and set the stage and say, hey, do you have a minute where I can like chat about this? I just have like this really gross experience and you know, this guy said something and I just like need to unpack it, like do you care? And they just showed up with like so much empathy and warmth and saying like I I, because I almost like questioned it I was like did that actually happen? And that's like not okay, right. Like like I was, like I was trying so hard to offer so much generosity that like there was this part of me that was like that's, that's not okay, like I'm not just making that up, am I, you know? And so I just called my friend and he was like no, like absolutely like that is not okay, like that is gross, that is disgusting, like you should never have said that.

Holly: 59:47

And but like I Knew that I could call her and count on her for that, because of smaller instances where you know we've We've been able to share our experiences and being clear, or you know, you know what I mean Like we've been able to to talk about, to Talk about those things before. So then, like when I had that moment, I knew that I could call her and chat with her about that. Right, someone who's accepted me, she's someone that like I've I've been able to kind of share with, like my kind of gender journey a bit more, which is a very big thing. You know what I mean. But like see, yeah, or like honestly, like I Think that's the moment that like what.

Holly: 1:00:39

So I came out to you like very early on and in my figuring things out and Like you, just you, you did and you do always whenever we like catch up, you always ask about things, like there's always so much curiosity there and like I really appreciate that. But when I like had to call you and for background everyone, Tayla had hired me for a job at the Missionary Training Center. Shout out to the MTC homies who are still the real us.

Holly: 1:01:16

Yeah, part of part of working at the Missionary Training Center is like you have to abide certain church standards and BYU standards. And at that point I had kind of gotten involved with a woman and Like really just is no longer like really abiding those standards, so felt like I should and maybe Take a bit of a take, a bit of a turn in terms of my occupation. It also happened to coincide with COVID, which was like really convenient, like literally the most convenient, and so we were all shifting to kind of virtual work anyway, and I remember calling Tayla a bit of a mess and Just telling her that I didn't think that that I could work for her anymore, and that was like that sucks the very most. And the very first thing that you asked and I don't know if you remember this, but the very first thing that you asked was how are you like, are you okay?

Holly: 1:02:18

Like you didn't care about the job, like you didn't care that I was dating a woman, like you didn't care about any of that, like you just genuinely cared about my well-being and and that that is an impactful allyship moment for me and in Reminding me that, like my well-being takes priority over Anything else, just kind of gave me permission to kind of take up that space in our friendship and knowing that like yeah, like really what matters to you is me and how I am, not anything else, like you can give a shit about the rest of it, you know, and and I think that's something that Like, especially in like a Non-queer-to-queer allyship moment, I think that's a huge one. Oh, a lot of my friends are just queer at this point. They're all just kind of gay. So I'm like thinking about all these people like yeah, but they're gay, like they're gay, they're gay like Still important though, like what's a real, like a true ally moment, you know, and that's definitely one that stands out for me.

Holly: 1:03:31

I'm glad you're sure that because I didn't.

Tayla: 1:03:32

I didn't remember exact. I remember the. I remember being Sad for you, not because of your decisions, but because I knew you loved what you did and that you were really good at it and that it was really hard to walk away. But I'm glad you reminded me that you were so good You're such a good teacher.

Holly: 1:03:51

Yeah, yeah, thanks, yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe I'll teach something one again yeah. Yeah, thanks, yeah, down the line, I've got to get more education before anyone will believe the things I have to say. But you know, one day, american education everyone, yeah, yeah and yeah, yeah, and I think, yeah, I know, I think there's. There's so many different experiences and thoughts and stories that I could share, but yeah, I think that's.

Tayla: 1:04:34

Yeah.

Holly: 1:04:35

I do you have another question? I feel like there's something else that's just to respond to there was, but I am glad you focused on the one. I.

Tayla: 1:04:45

Guess I'll maybe adjust the question to is kind of as we close out, part one as we close out, I would love to know yeah, baby. Is there anything else that you'd want to speak to or to kind of articulate, as far as either Hopes or important things that you think people should know about the topic?

Holly: 1:05:06

Yeah, I think that like, yeah, for people that are on their allyship journeys, I would say that, well, maybe a couple of things.

Holly: 1:05:19

I think that everyone's needs are different. Right, like you know, we do studies, we try to understand queer people, kind of as an aggregate at large. But really, like, understand your person, understand your people, and that might look different. You know, like, and that's okay. You know what safety signaling to one, like Another person might wonder are they being performative or not? And that's okay, like that's for them to navigate. But like, what is for you to navigate is like how you exist in, like your discomfort and being okay with that. Like I think that. Like, I think that, like, what is most impactful for me might not be most impactful for my mom or, you know, my best friend or whatever, and we all have our different experiences and in the things that we need. And so just kind of going back to that point, like, really humanize this person and just be so curious. People have asked me you know they're like I'm sorry if this is like a census, but like I don't know what pronouns to use for you Like that's not offensive at all, like whether, like, no matter what pronouns I use like that is not a census to me, because I know that you're just trying to understand and respect me. So it literally doesn't matter, like, like, if you worry that that's going to come across as offensive because you're assuming something is just Like, really what you're showing at the end of the day is like a level of awareness that a lot of people aren't getting, you know. So just say yes, stay very curious. If you feel uncomfortable, you can acknowledge that and just say, hey, I'm a little bit uncomfortable, I'm trying to work on it. It's not their job to take care of your discomfort, you know. But and so I would say that like that's something that I hope for For allyship is that, like, allies get comfortable. And being uncomfortable because being uncomfortable is the experience of the people who need allyship. A lot of the time there's like get on our level, you know, and they're really, they really are going to accept your efforts, no matter how awkward they come across, and they'll guide you in the things that they need from you.

Holly: 1:07:58

I think that the other thing that I hope for kind of kind of at large, you know, kind of in a zoomed out way, in terms of maybe more community organizing and activism is really thinking about. You know, will this legislation, will this bill, will this? You know, like, will this going to this parade, or this march, or, you know, going to that musical? Is that going to change my life? Like, probably not, like you know, but like, will it help someone else's? Probably, and you know those.

Holly: 1:08:39

Those are the things that that matter more, you know, at least in my humble opinion, like showing up for the people that you care about and being a voice to the voiceless. That's important. You know giving, you know voting in a way that supports people who don't have enough support. That's important. And because, at the end of the day, they can't do it alone. We can't do it alone.

Holly: 1:09:09

And and and we need people who can recognize that, like, my safety matters to and it's not taking away from yours, you know, not a zero, some game that we're living in and support and love, sure as hell, isn't a zero from the game. You know, never. It's never, it was never meant to be, and so I think that those are. Those are my thoughts on on allyship. Moving forward is just like be brave because it is a, it is brave to exist, queer in this world. It's even braver to do it, and maybe I don't believe that it's. It's very brave to do it very openly as well, though you know and and shout out to the people who who are brave enough to be out and open, but maybe not safe enough to be out and open.

Tayla: 1:10:07

Thank you so much. I'm so glad. What how this ended up happening is. You saw my post on our stories that we were going to be doing this and I was asking for a couple people had had reached out with some questions that we discussed. But Holly reached out, she had done some research and as we were kind of talking and I was just like actually yeah, the paper.

Tayla: 1:10:29

Actually do you want to come? Come on, and I actually would love we were talking about a study that Holly did. It's part of her studies on kind of a similar issue to what we've spoken about. That I'd love to link, if it's okay with you, holly, in the show notes so that people can read it. They're curious. Yep, that'd be great, but thank you for coming on.

Tayla: 1:10:50

It was important to have you on and to hear from you really, rather than Sam and I trying to bumble through and talk about something we're still. Thank you for coming.

Holly: 1:11:06

Oh yeah, and totally thanks for having me. It really was so delightful and I just love you and Sam and your family. I love chatting with you Like I could I could do this all day, just sit here and talk with you. So, yeah, thanks for having me.

Tayla: 1:11:22

Yeah, part two. For sure, get it on the books.

Holly: 1:11:27

Totally.

Tayla: 1:11:32

Thanks for listening to the babe. What do you know about podcast? Remember to rate, subscribe and review.