True Crime

As Sam talked about cracking open the nostalgic treasure of 20,000 Magic the Gathering cards on his 40th birthday, he never imagined it would lead to a deep dive into the world of true crime—but here we are. This episode isn't just about recounting crimes; it's an introspection on the genre's ethical boundaries and our own fascination with the macabre. We're not just reveling in the thrill of mystery-solving; we're pondering the implications for victims' families and the balance between storytelling and exploitation.

Ever wonder how a true crime saga can sway legal outcomes and societal norms? In our latest chat, we dissect high-profile cases like the Golden State Killer and the West Memphis Three, examining the ripple effects they've had on justice and reform. We don't just stop there; we navigate through the emotional turmoil faced by law enforcers, legal eagles, and the bereaved, emphasizing true crime's duality as both a catalyst for change and a source of raw entertainment.

Finally, we share some personal musings on the parallels between our lust for true crime narratives and the allure of reality TV—it's all about the draw of the real, unscripted drama. While we might scratch our heads at the Kardashian phenomenon, we urge us all to be more intentional about the media we consume. So, let's connect the dots of our media habits and their impact, and prepare to be part of more robust discussions in the episodes that lie ahead. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button for "Babe, What do you know?" and share your insights with a review.

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What Do you Know About the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo Sam

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:32

So happy new year to everyone. It's 2024. It's been a wild couple of weeks since we last released an episode, but it's been an interesting year so far.

Sam: 0:43

I know I bought 20,000 Magic the Gathering cards as the highlight for me so far.

Tayla: 0:49

Yeah, it was your birthday gift. Yes, so that's the big news the Sam turned 40. Just what it's been a week yeah a week, so happy birthday. It's a big one. Unfortunately, it wasn't as fun as it was supposed to be.

Sam: 1:04

Yeah, I think I got a little bit sick for the week and so it's kind of just spent most of the day just kind of, I guess, week just inside.

Tayla: 1:14

I just remember saying to you when you feel better, that will be your birthday. Yeah, so we need to. You're finally on the mend, so we need to have a day where we really celebrate. Yes, you did get 20,000 Magic, the Gathering cards. You got to tell the story behind. Why the hell we would do that.

Sam: 1:32

Yeah, so I picked up Magic the Gathering pretty much when it first came out back in like 94. 94, I think the year I was born. Yeah, 94. Yeah, I think it was the end of 94, somewhere around there, and played with some friends and started collecting cards. And then I was in South Africa and then moved to the United States and then at one point in my adult life I needed to pay rent and didn't have enough money. So I sold my collection to pay rent and ever since then I was like you know.

Sam: 2:08

I regret that because there were like really you know cool old unique cards. And then you know, just the other day I was just looking at you know pops up on some sort of feed and I was like, oh, you know what I'm going to do it and I just looked at a few different like postings on you know the local, whatever, and then bought a few boxes.

Tayla: 2:30

Few boxes, literally yeah, and he's been spending much time logging those into an app of some kind and as long as you're having fun. I was just worried I wouldn't be able to get you a good present for your birthday that you would like. So I'm just happy that well, at least you're happy Not what I would have thought, or just chosen or thought to buy for you.

Sam: 2:52

Yeah, two thumbs up. In fact, we're looking at the boxes right now. It just covers our like kitchen table, our entire dining room table.

Tayla: 3:00

But yeah, it's been a good few weeks. It was nice to take a little bit of a break. I'm still thinking about the episode we released last week with Scott and Hannah. It was such a good episode. I think we probably need to do a part two of some kind. It was so interesting. But today is going to be a bit of a change, but very fun. So let me do my thing.

Sam: 3:18

No, I'm listening.

Tayla: 3:20

Today we're digging deep into the heart of the true crime obsession. This episode isn't just about grizzly details and killer catchphrases. We're going to, we're going under the magnifying glass to examine the shadows of this genre, the ethical controversies and the psychological pull that has millions glued to their screens. True crime podcasts alone are raking in over $1 billion a year. That's just true crime podcasts. That's more than the entire avocado industry, which is a random fact, but a big fact. What?

Sam: 3:56

It's like why'd you pick on avocados?

Tayla: 3:58

Because it makes more than avocados do. So it's not just podcasts, we have documentaries, books, tv shows, even TikTok creators are feeding the insatiable hunger for real life. Holla, holla.

Sam: 4:11

Holla, holla.

Tayla: 4:12

Horror, but why? One theory is that it's the thrill of the hunt, the vicarious justice of watching the bad guys get caught. We become amateur sleuths, piecing together clues, outsmarting the criminals in our head. But what about the victims? Are we exploiting their tragedies for entertainment? Are we sensationalizing trauma for clicks and shares? It's a complicated dance. On one hand, true crime can shine a light on injustices Shite, stop, keep going, guys. Apparently our thing is just not be able to speak properly. Okay, stop. On one hand, true crime can shine a light on injustices and give a voice to the voiceless. On the other hand, a can sensationalize violence, perpetuate harmful stereotypes and even re-traumatize those affected. So where do we draw on the line? How can we love true crime responsibly, ethically, without getting lost in the darkness? That's what we'll be grappling with today. We'll dive into some case studies and explore the psychology behind our fascination with the macabre. So, babe, what do you know about true crime?

Sam: 5:22

Very little. I never really got into it. I'm not a big fan, so it's going to be me being negative Nancy while Tayla talks about how awesome it is.

Tayla: 5:32

But you assume too much.

Sam: 5:34

You had a true crime podcast.

Tayla: 5:36

I did have a true crime podcast. It was very, very fun. It actually did very well. So I do, I do and I would say, maybe a little bit dead enjoy true crime Very, very much. It was the only podcasts I really listened to. I listened to my favorite murder a lot for many years and but I feel like I've shifted in my relationship with true crime a little bit. What do you think, before we get into some details, what do you think it is about true crime that grabs people?

Sam: 6:08

I legitimately don't know.

Tayla: 6:10

Really Well, because it's no guesses.

Sam: 6:12

Well, I've got guesses, but I don't actually get it. So for me it's just like there must be something wrong with people. I'm like that's the only thing I can think of, because I'm like it's honestly it's very sad. You know, you're like you said, you're kind of glorifying these things and it's people's family that have been murdered. So I mean it's pretty horrific. So I don't get it, you know, but you know Shutting down the conversation. No but at the same time it's like I also don't get a lot of things.

Sam: 6:52

So if I, you know, give space to you know, just like with your podcast, give space to people that you know find things interesting, try find, you know, like, try to understand. But genuinely I just can't get my head in a space where I go like, oh yeah, this is fun and entertaining and you know, I just I'm not on that page.

Tayla: 7:12

Well, I will say I can't speak for other people but for myself why I was so interested in it slash can occasionally still be interested in it is because it kind of touches and itches that need to understand psychology People who are interested in justice, in law, in detective work. It kind of is a complicated thing for you. It's almost like a puzzle to put together that you don't usually get to put together in normal life. That helps to understand and think about things and kind of shape your view on humanity a bit, because in true crime you learn not only about the worst of the worst people that have ever existed but also the best of the best.

Tayla: 8:05

And so that's that's. I think what intrigued slash intrigues me about true crime is that it does push me into a problem solving mentality of okay, this is a problem, this is what happened. How do we not only catch these people but prosecute them, make sure they can't come across any other or they can't, they don't have the capacity to commit those crimes again. And, from a legal standpoint, something that was always very interesting to me was that legal side, and that's why my podcast was called Violence and Verdict, because a lot of true crime left out. Okay, it would get to the point where someone was caught and that was kind of it, maybe like a sentence or two on what happened after that.

Tayla: 8:49

But I'm always fascinated by when you get these people on a stand or defending themselves, or what do the lawyers do in order to make sure that justice is served. That is always fascinating to me to understand the legal system and the legal ramifications as well, and that's affected a lot of our current laws and how society runs today. So that's kind of my interest in it, though I think my relationship is shifting with it, because it's more of that humanizing of victims and what that experience would be like if cases that were being talked about like this, or filmed or whatever, involved people I really love and care about.

Sam: 9:30

Yeah, I mean I hear you and it makes a lot of sense when you're describing it, but you know, I think about the people that do work, you know, in law enforcements, do work in the legal system. I mean you know that they're they're drained and it's emotionally draining on them and their families to actually live through these things, just as on the law enforcement side, not even on the family and the victim side, Like you were saying, it's shifting because when you put on the lens of like oh, these are real victims, it's not just a story, not just a puzzle, it becomes just dark and negative very quickly.

Tayla: 10:15

Yeah, so let's talk a bit about some positives, because that's what I was really trying to think like what would be a positive.

Tayla: 10:21

Beyond maybe just scratching the itch that people have when it comes to just understanding these extreme cases, true crime can do some good and has done some good. So it has shined a light on some injustices, it has helped to solve cold cases and raised awareness for important social issues. So I have a couple examples of that of literally true crime making a positive impact. So the first one is the Golden State Killer case. So there was meticulous research and podcast production done, the podcast that I think is called Serial Killers and that uncovered crucial evidence that ultimately led to the arrest of Joseph James DeAngelo, the notorious Golden State Killer, and he was responsible for dozens of murders and rapes across California and was at large for decades. And so this case kind of demonstrates the potential of true crime and people's involvement and willingness to look to kind of put the puzzle together, more minds, and that solved this cold case and contributed to long awaited justice and also putting someone that is very dangerous away. So that's one.

Sam: 11:32

That's awesome.

Tayla: 11:33

Yeah, it's cool and I'm not going to pretend that that's the majority of cases, but it is like cool evidence of true crime having a positive impact. Another one was there was an HBO documentary called Paradise Lost, which brought international attention to the wrongful convictions of what are referred to as the West Memphis Three. There were three teenagers charged with the brutal murders of three children in Arkansas. Public outcry after watching the documentary led to investigations that did eventually exonerate the trio in 2011. So it kind of again highlights the power of true crime to raise awareness about systemic injustices and try to advocate for reform. And that's been the case a few times where there have been, you know, someone has been convicted of a crime that when you get enough people looking at different pieces of evidence, you see that injustice, you see that it was clearly wrong and that shenanigans or it just happened to be that judge and those lawyers that kind of messed things up that changed a lot of people's lives. That's just kind of one example.

Sam: 12:40

That's great.

Tayla: 12:41

Had you heard of that before, okay?

Tayla: 12:45

Well then, one last cool example of true crime doing something cool was podcasts like Up and Vanished and Bear Brook. They've garnered significant media attention for unsolved missing persons cases leading to renewed investigations and, in some instances, breakthroughs. So these podcasts raise public awareness, motivate communities to search for missing individuals and provide pressure on the authorities to dedicate resources to forgotten cases. So there's a few other examples like true crime documentaries leading to awareness of crucial issues like domestic violence or human trafficking, mental health struggles, child abuse, and they can also generate funding for advocacy groups and support families coping with tragedy. So I will say, a lot of true crime podcasts, especially the big ones, will use the obsession with it to raise funds for victims' families or for continued investigation when authorities say like we need to close the door or we put enough resources towards us. So I think that is a kind of a cool thing that has been done with true crime, but it doesn't take away from the fact that I don't know, it kind of feels a little prostitutes, you know.

Sam: 14:05

Yeah, I think prostitutes is a great word. No, I think those things are great, I really do. I mean, whenever I've heard a true crime podcast, it really has just been like, you know, the audience in the podcast was kind of like almost like smiling at the situations and like, oh, wow, you know what a crazy situation, can you believe that? And then they're like, oh, by that poor woman, you know, it really does feel like are we really? You know, I couldn't imagine like an afterthought.

Sam: 14:36

Yeah, I couldn't imagine if that was like me listening to a family member that I've gone through that and then to hear the way they're treating it is just yeah. Yeah, that can be pretty grotesque.

Tayla: 14:48

No, absolutely, and I think part of understanding that has affected my relationship with it. I don't think I've consumed true crime in. It's been over a year. I don't think.

Sam: 15:01

Yeah.

Tayla: 15:01

And the problem well, not the problem, but the fact of the matter is that the industry is here, it's big and it's going to be around. So how do we balance fascination with justice, because I think a lot of people, that's a big pull for them and respect for those affected, because it is a thing that will exist and continue to exist? So how would you recommend people adjust to the industry to be more respectful?

Sam: 15:32

I don't know, because I feel like it's a broader problem with social media and with entertainment now is that people are willing to say and do things that they don't truly believe, or put on a persona just to get eyeballs.

Sam: 15:49

The more shocking a thing that you say or the more irreverent you can be, the more people will potentially watch it and consume it and share it, and so there's an encouragement to not treat this in a very nice way and to be prostitutie about it. So a solution, I guess we just need to be better as humanity. I don't know the driving force of income and money, unfortunately, is too much of an incentive to not do it, because if you don't do it, someone else is going to and you can't legislate around it. It's not like you're like okay, we're going to put laws around this free speech. So it's kind of I don't have a solution and at the same time I would hope it just kind of the fad. The fat part of it diminishes over time and the good parts of it stick.

Sam: 16:54

But that's a hope rather than an action.

Tayla: 16:57

Yeah, I don't think it'll go anywhere. I think the appetite for it only increases with time. Whether that should be the case or not, I feel it is, but it is a hard question to answer, and I feel like I have observed some of these more major, true kind podcasts in particular. There has been a need for them to pivot how they do what they do, because I think a lot of people are coming to this place of hmm, I enjoy consuming this, but I feel like I shouldn't, and this is why. So I think, just like with social media, it's the boring answer and the impatient answer, which is it does take, I think, action by each of us to be thoughtful about what we consume.

Tayla: 17:53

If someone is not handling true crime in a way that is respectful and ethical, to not consume it right, or to not watch the reels or the TikToks or whatever that sensationalize violence or perpetuate stereotypes or tropes in people, because that's another weakness that true crime can have is it can highlight and perpetuate stereotypes of people. So it's, I don't know, it's kind of a boring solution, but it is one that has made a difference for me. That's something I'm just not. You know a lot of people who have been avid fans of true crime and then kind of turn away. Actually, a big reason for that is typically because of a need for less heaviness and stress, because it's heavy to constantly be consuming information in your brain about how someone was murdered and how someone was raped and how this or that happened right, and so eventually people get to the point of like I don't think this is good for me.

Sam: 18:59

Yeah.

Tayla: 19:00

So I do think there's some benefit in that I have thought I've been able to think through, as a woman, different ways in which I can better protect myself and prevent things from happening, by seeing, time and time again, examples of things that can be dangerous, or how different victims responded in a way that allowed them to successfully survive or not, but then, at the same time that's what I was thinking about all the time I'd go for a run and be like that's the world, yeah, but the murderers and rapists, yeah distorts your whole lens.

Sam: 19:39

I mean, we live in a very, very safe city and do feel unsafe and the city would it's quite a stretch.

Tayla: 19:49

It's not a good look if you're just not connected to reality. But I spoke a little bit about some true crime stories perpetuating harmful stereotypes and inaccurate portrayals of certain groups. And it's interesting because my family, my cousin and I, were just kind of talking about this because she spoke about yet another documentary about some religious extremists that subscribed to her religion and she was just saying how tired she was of all these documentaries about these people that went wacko crazy, that profess to have the same religious beliefs as she does Because she's like it's just so not how I believe and how most people in my religion believe, and that's an interesting thing to kind of grapple with. Yeah, in that way, right, and I remember feeling the same way. I remember wondering in like Catholicism is portrayed in such interesting ways in media and that can be really harmful for people who really believe in the religion.

Tayla: 21:01

I don't know what do you think? I struggle with that because I responded to her and said yeah, I mean, that's unfortunate because then people who don't know as much about your religion have this view of what your religion is. That isn't accurate. But at the same time, it is true that this many people that believe in your same religion did all this crazy stuff. So how to balance that like accurate reporting of history and things that have happened, with not perpetuating stereotypes? I feel like that's a really difficult line to walk.

Sam: 21:37

Yeah, I mean I've got a broader discussion about stereotypes we could have I guess this is the space and time for it. I didn't come prepared for that. It's a prize, you know. So yeah, there's crazy people and people are independent and unique. In every group Right In Mormonism, you'll have offshoots or fundamentalists that they're crazy. They're certain crazy and the crimes that they typically commit will be a certain typical lane. And then same thing with Catholicism or Islam or atheist, or pick a subgroup.

Tayla: 22:24

It could be political yeah.

Sam: 22:28

Yeah, think about young depressed males, that subset group. You think, oh, school shooter, because, yeah, that's the demographic. So, yeah, so are stereotypes bad? I don't think they're necessarily bad. If a stereotype is something that you're using to help create, it's just human nature. We basically look at patterns and when you see a pattern you go, okay, I'm gonna try and be careful of that pattern. And so it is fascinating how there'll be patterns within each one of these groups and these stereotypes. And I feel like in a very political correct environment, having or believing in, or ascribing to, or even stating a stereotype is massively frowned upon. But I feel like there is some sort of balance where you don't feel like all women are this way, but rather typically you will find this extreme behavior in women versus men, or this subgroup of white women in Utah typical extreme behavior. You won't find that extreme behavior in the East Coast, et cetera.

Tayla: 23:49

I'm gonna be very vague, but that will have its own brand, yeah exactly so.

Sam: 23:55

stereotypes on a whole like ramble here, but I think stereotypes exist because it's human nature to try and understand patterns and human behavior for our own safety.

Tayla: 24:07

And am I understanding that in your mind that's not a bad thing?

Sam: 24:13

It's not a bad thing as long as you also, at the same time, are aware that it's not a fact about someone in that demographic Like am I a school shooter?

Tayla: 24:26

Right. So I guess what would be the point of talking about the stereotype at all if you're gonna use the stereotype to identify patterns but then not use it to understand people in that demographic, I guess?

Sam: 24:41

I'll explain it again. So it can be useful in terms of the studying of patterns in human behavior, because you'll be able to find, maybe potential unique environmental triggers or community issues that have allowed certain individuals that create, that have extreme behavior, to act out in the way that they have chosen to Suicide versus school shooting, versus gang violence, versus drug use, versus, et cetera. Different demographics have different outlets in terms of how they're managing their extreme behavior.

Tayla: 25:31

So you're kind of a proponent for stereotyping academically rather than socially?

Sam: 25:36

Yes, Okay, but as a human, you kind of just do it anyways, where you notice patterns, and then as long as you're aware that just because someone fits that demographic does not mean that that's who they are. That's what I was trying to say. I'm a white male. Does that make me a school shooter? No, it doesn't.

Tayla: 25:52

However, the vast majority of school shooters are white males Okay, interesting, and I think a lot of this question of stereotyping comes into.

Tayla: 26:04

Then the ethical responsibility of creators around true crime to handle this from that lens right, because that's difficult, because you could argue that creators are doing things both socially and academically. One idea that I came across as I was preparing for this episode is the idea of engaging with true crime, or the interesting parts of true crime, in a way that isn't attached to real life stories or situations. So I asked AI to pretty much come up with a game called Guilty or Not Guilty, in which it would create fictional crime scenarios for us, completely fictional. None of it is real. Nothing's ever happened for us to engage with more like heartedly or to kind of talk through some of these scenarios. I want to know, because I haven't told you about this before now, I want to know what you think of that idea and whether you think that's I don't know, quote unquote more ethical or Look if this helps you with your puzzle solving and trying to figure things out.

Sam: 27:24

sure, I think it's more ethical, Do?

Tayla: 27:26

you want to play?

Sam: 27:27

Yeah, absolutely All right.

Tayla: 27:29

Everyone play along. So scenario one and the point of this is to decide guilty or not guilty, and they're not like too specific, so I feel like.

Sam: 27:43

Did AI come up with? Like the whole scenario where it's there is a guilty verdict and a non?

Tayla: 27:49

Nope, we just get to decide. I could have made it.

Sam: 27:51

As an audience.

Tayla: 27:53

I could have made it. I should have done that. What if?

Sam: 27:55

we're training AI to be To solve crimes. Oh, I was going to go the opposite direction. But yes, solve crimes, that's what we want. What?

Tayla: 28:02

were you going to say To like design?

Sam: 28:04

crimes for people AI serial killers.

Tayla: 28:07

Oh no, all right. All right, let's just play Scenario. One wealthy socialite disappears from her yacht during a celebratory birthday cruise. Her husband has a documented history of gambling debts he did it Of gambling, debts and infidelity. Witnesses saw them arguing on deck shortly before her disappearance. The husband claims she got drunk and fell overboard, but no body is found, guilty or not guilty.

Sam: 28:41

There's not enough evidence, but the first suspect obviously is the husband Right. And yeah, you'd have to look for evidence, I guess.

Tayla: 28:50

Yeah, I think I would. I think I would say I don't know it could have. Just, you know, that's maybe jumping to an easy conclusion, except for the fact that he has any kind of story that something happened to her and he didn't like alert people oh, my wife got drunk and fell off. You know, if he has any story about her disappearance, that he was there and no one else saw To me that.

Sam: 29:13

Sus Sus yeah.

Tayla: 29:16

So my verdict is also guilty.

Sam: 29:19

Dang All right.

Tayla: 29:21

Scenario two A popular food blogger is found poisoned in his own restaurant. His online rival, known for scathing reviews, posted a public threat against him just days before the murder. However, the blogger also had secret health issues and a potential allergic reaction to a new ingredient. This is very clearly written by AI. This one Guilty or not guilty. The food the rival.

Sam: 29:53

The rival. I think it was accidental.

Tayla: 29:56

Why I? Don't know, it's just my bad feeling again Arbitrary, I think so too. If he has secret health issues, I don't know. I feel like it would be a really dumb move for someone to publicly threaten someone and then actually do something afterwards. Right, you'd have to be really really dumb. So either guilty by a really really dumb person or not guilty, and just bad timing for that dude.

Sam: 30:20

Rip.

Tayla: 30:21

Okay.

Sam: 30:22

You know what this reminds me of? What? What was it like Hunter Killer board game thing?

Tayla: 30:29

Hunter Killer.

Sam: 30:30

Hunter Killer. Remember, we did it with Dave and Sarah.

Tayla: 30:34

Yes, it was like.

Sam: 30:37

I think it was called like Hunter Killer, hunter Killer, hunter Killer, yeah, yeah.

Tayla: 30:41

So our brother and sister-in-law they subscribed to this couple's activity where they would get given backstory and a bunch of like physical pieces of evidence and stuff and pretty much the game is for you to go through and then determine who did it.

Sam: 31:00

See, I get that, I get that.

Tayla: 31:02

Really.

Sam: 31:03

Yeah, because it's all about, like you said, it's just the puzzle detective portion of that whole.

Tayla: 31:07

True, kind of thing.

Sam: 31:07

It's not real yeah it's not real and it's also not gruesome and it's lighthearted.

Tayla: 31:13

Okay, all right. So so you understand the the interest in like wondering if could I solve it, would I spot the things that I'm supposed to spot? Okay, that's interesting, that's true. Okay, we just got three more scenarios. I just did five. So scenario three a reclusive author who lives in a remote cabin is accused of killing his neighbor, local forest ranger. The author claims self-defense, stating the ranger was trespassing and threatened him with an axe. But the ranger's family points out that their dog always kept leash leashed is missing, suggesting a struggle beyond self-defense guilty or not guilty.

Sam: 31:56

What state are they in?

Tayla: 31:59

It doesn't say, but I'm going to say Missouri Ozarks.

Sam: 32:06

Do they have a standard ground law or a castle doctrine, then it self-defense.

Tayla: 32:12

Because of the law? Yeah, all right. I mean, I think legally that may be self-defense, but it seems like someone is using a legal premise to justify murder.

Sam: 32:21

Based on just a dog being missing.

Tayla: 32:24

No, the fact that the author says that he did kill someone.

Sam: 32:34

Yeah, but he's still saying self-defense. You're saying it's not self-defense.

Tayla: 32:38

So he's saying it was self-defense because the ranger was trespassing and threatened him with an axe, but he didn't actually do anything with an axe.

Sam: 32:45

Still.

Tayla: 32:47

Still what. It would still be it's okay to kill someone if they stand there threateningly with an axe.

Sam: 32:53

Threatenly no. But if they threaten you with an axe right there, I mean, that's all we have. We don't know what the details of the threats are.

Tayla: 33:04

I will make it more specific next time, but I think, okay, you might be, yeah, not guilty. I don't. I think that would be the right verdict, based on technicalities, but I don't think it's.

Sam: 33:17

I'm a firm believer of innocence until proven guilty.

Tayla: 33:21

Ah, how American of you.

Sam: 33:23

So I'm just not getting enough facts in these things.

Tayla: 33:25

No, you're not, so that's why it's fun. I'm going to argue about rubbish. So scenario four a tech CEO known for his ruthless business practices is found dead in his penthouse apartment. No signs of forced entry, but his estranged wife, who just inherited his fortune, had recently hired a private investigator to expose his illegal activities. The CEO also had a heart condition and a strained relationship with his jealous rival company. Guilty or not guilty, the wife Innocent until proven guilty.

Sam: 34:08

Yeah, this way too many like freaking like open ended.

Tayla: 34:13

Yeah, we need like to do the full hunter killer. Yeah, audio wise, all right.

Sam: 34:18

Still.

Tayla: 34:20

We'll do one live on A Last one. Last one, I'm sorry. Two teenagers vanish from a deserted amusement park during a late night Halloween event. Security footage shows a strange masked figure chasing them shortly before the disappearance. Local legends whisper about a vengeful ghost haunting the park, but a disgruntled former employee was also recently fired for safety violation, guilty or not.

Sam: 34:50

This is Scooby Doo.

Tayla: 34:52

It is there's like five mosques under the guy and it was.

Sam: 34:58

It's never a ghost.

Tayla: 35:00

It's never a ghost, you're right. I mean you're right, so this was fun. Has some King's I need to work out.

Sam: 35:12

This is a 1.0.

Tayla: 35:14

Version 1.0, but the idea is cool.

Sam: 35:17

I think it's great.

Tayla: 35:18

It's a good idea to scratch the edge I could. I could have been way more specific over this in hindsight, but still.

Sam: 35:27

I just love how quick you were to like call people guilty Guilty. Oh, there's a husband involved, guilty.

Tayla: 35:35

You are the one that said guilty right away. When the husband was, you were like it was the husband. You didn't even hear the story.

Sam: 35:41

I didn't need the story.

Tayla: 35:42

It's always the husband You're projecting, you're projecting your judgment onto me, it's always the husband, I will say I think I just started switching because you were not guilty, everyone's not guilty, so I had to, you know, pizzazz it up a little.

Sam: 35:56

Everyone wasn't guilty. It's just too open ended.

Tayla: 36:00

It was too open ended and also it was fake and also stakes were low.

Sam: 36:04

Also I would say, instead of not guilty, I'd say innocent until proven. Guilty is just question mark.

Tayla: 36:14

Okay, so we'd need to like go through all the evidence and stuff. Okay, so ultimately, we've talked all around, true, which has mostly been negative.

Sam: 36:26

Well, again, I understand that people like it. I don't get it, but do I think I need to do something about it? No, okay, do I wish that society was better?

Tayla: 36:39

Yes, but be better Tayla.

Sam: 36:44

But it is what it is and people find it entertaining. You know people also find like the Kardashians entertaining. So who am I to say that they're wrong and I'm right?

Tayla: 36:56

Except for Sam Wilson, objectively, you don't know, but subjectively everyone else is wrong. No, I think for me, if it's something that you do indulge in, which I understand more than Sam why you would I think just being more thoughtful of the impact of that consumption is the way to go, and I think there's intentionality is important in general with media consumption for us. So, this is fun Not as fun as it could have been with someone who consumed true crime.

Sam: 37:31

Next episode will be more.

Tayla: 37:33

My more prostituity. Thanks for listening to the Babe. What do you know about? Podcast?

Sam: 37:42

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