Henry Kissinger

Ready to learn about one of the most influential and contentious figures in modern history? Our latest episode unravels the life and impact of Henry Kissinger, the German-American diplomat who shaped US foreign policy during the Cold War era. Born a Jewish refugee fleeing Nazi Germany, Kissinger’s ascent to power as National Security Advisor and Secretary of State brought forth decisions that left enduring imprints on international politics. We discuss the less-explored corners of his life, from his reputation as a ladies' man to his recent trip to China at the ripe old age of 100. 

Brace yourselves as we scrutinize Kissinger's contentious actions and pragmatic approach to foreign policy. We delve into the disastrous effects of his direction of carpet bombings in Cambodia, and his support of dictatorial regimes. With a keen focus on the historical context of the Cold War, we dissect the cost of his decisions and the debate around his legacy that still rages on. This episode is more than just a history lesson—it's an exploration of international relations, democracy, and collaboration in global affairs.

Whether you're a history buff, a political science student, or just someone with an inquisitive mind, this episode offers a fascinating exploration of Henry Kissinger's legacy. We've gone beyond the textbook, drawing on a vast array of sources to provide a comprehensive picture of this complex figure. Get ready for an episode that is as provocative as it is informative, as we tackle the policies and impact of a man who indelibly shaped the world. We can't wait to hear your thoughts on this engaging subject!

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What Do you Know About the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo Sam

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way. So I'm really enjoying my free time. Well, new free time. I'm trying to go to the gym as much as possible.

Tayla: 0:42

Yeah, I'm trying to think when the last time we started going to the gym was like consistently, like you have been.

Sam: 0:48

My app tells me it was seven years ago.

Tayla: 0:51

Seriously no we started. We kind of went before I got pregnant with Ella we did. Four years ago I went to the PervaRex Center, went with my sister Kelsey, before she like went to college.

Sam: 1:04

I think I went like three times.

Tayla: 1:07

Why went more than that?

Sam: 1:09

Rip me.

Tayla: 1:11

How's it?

Sam: 1:11

been Good. I'm really enjoying it.

Tayla: 1:15

So yeah, I mean okay. So the news is You're enjoying it.

Sam: 1:18

Yeah, I actually am enjoying it. So the news is sold the business and now working on the next one.

Tayla: 1:27

Yeah, it's a big deal. You're a freeloader now. I'm just kidding.

Sam: 1:33

I'm going to file for unemployment.

Tayla: 1:36

I'm bringing in the only salary we have. I know no, but I mean you sold a business, so huge benefits to that. So great job, great job to you. You're amazing Thanks babes, yeah.

Sam: 1:49

So the next thing is going to get the board game done, I think by February. Launch, yeah, kickstarter, kickstarter.

Tayla: 1:57

Man, we'll have to talk more about that.

Sam: 1:58

Yeah, next time on, next time on Babe. What do you know?

Tayla: 2:01

Babe, what do you know about? Yeah, I just repeated what you were saying. I'm very tired today.

Sam: 2:07

This is going to be a good one, especially considering this is a very factually based discussion we're supposed to have.

Tayla: 2:13

Our best kinds of episodes. I actually do think it's going to be stop coughing, wow. It wasn't been like a month of you coughing.

Sam: 2:21

Yeah, since I got back from Portugal.

Tayla: 2:23

Man.

Sam: 2:25

Yeah.

Tayla: 2:25

It's not quite a month. It feels like it was a lifetime ago that we were in Portugal. But yeah, man, lots going on though, but today is going to be a good one, I think. So let me do my introduction. I haven't ready, it's just on my phone somewhere. I got to go get it. Okay, here it is. Here it is. We are going to be talking today about Henry Kissinger, who was born on May 27th 1923, which tells you how old is he.

Sam: 2:52

Or was he? He was 100. He died 100.

Tayla: 2:56

He was a very cool age to be so. Henry Kissinger, born May 27th 1923, was a German American diplomat and political scientist renowned for his influential role in shaping US foreign policy during the Cold War. Kissinger served as the national security advisor and secretary of state under presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford. His diplomatic achievements include the normalization of relations between the United States and China, the taunt with the Soviet Union and negotiating the end of the Vietnam War. However, his policies have sparked both praise for geopolitical pragmatism and criticism for alleged disregard of human rights concerns. So, babe, what do you know about Henry Kissinger?

Sam: 3:43

Man, just a little bit just from the Googling and what I can remember from school.

Tayla: 3:48

So Well, what do you remember? Did you learn about him in school, like high school or college?

Sam: 3:54

Like as a footnote, like as in like you know during the Cold War? Yeah, it was all Cold War related communism.

Tayla: 4:01

So I didn't include this in my introduction. Wow, Tayla, wow, but he just passed away last week. So this is why part of why we're talking about it he's been a prominent, prominent political figure for a long time and also still has like, spoke it like, even into his very old age was still speaking at events and lecturing and stuff. We'll talk more about that. But yeah, he passed away on November 30th I believe.

Sam: 4:37

Yeah.

Tayla: 4:37

November 30th. I saw this yeah.

Sam: 4:41

I saw this comment on a post. I was reading that you know the there's a set of you know the. There's a saying you know only the good die young and Satan he had. But obviously Kissinger had made a deal with the devil and Satan was trying to keep him alive for as long as possible because he's worried that once Kissinger shows up to hell, that he's going to have a take over.

Tayla: 5:03

No, he will prop him up as a dictator. Anyways, that's a funny joke. Well, if you're okay, I feel like this might be a good place to start, because Kissinger because he just passed away he's being remembered in official statements by some pretty prominent figures. So there's an official statement from former president George W Bush and I also have one from Vladimir Putin. So here is some of what George W Bush said about Henry Kissinger. He said America has lost one of the most dependable and distinctive voices on foreign affairs with the passing of Henry Kissinger.

Tayla: 5:43

I have long admired the man who fled the Nazis as a young boy from a Jewish family, then fought them in the United States Army when he later became Secretary of State. His appointment as a former refugee said as much about his greatness as it did about America's greatness. He worked in the administrations of two presidents and counseled many more. I am grateful for that service and advice, but I'm most grateful for his friendship. Laura and I will miss his wisdom, his charm and his humor. We will always be thankful for the contributions of Henry Kissinger. So that was George W Bush.

Tayla: 6:17

Here is part of what Vladimir Putin said. He said the name of Henry Kissinger is inextricably linked with a pragmatic foreign policy line which at one time made it possible to achieve detente in international tensions and reach the most important Soviet-American agreements that contributed to the strengthening of global security. He's referring to a peace treaty in the Cold War that we'll get a little bit more into later on, but very interesting from those guys. So now there's also some criticism, a lot of criticism. I need to drink something, I don't know. Well, I think it's super.

Sam: 7:02

Just to pause there for a second. It's pretty impressive to get a compliment from George W Bush and Vladimir Putin. Obviously, the man was very gifted in terms of pragmatism and focusing on the ability to reduce tensions through communication.

Tayla: 7:23

Correct, correct, and I think that's why he's a complicated figure, and I'll bring up, I'll read, some of the criticisms. This one is by the nation. This is what it says. It says Kissinger's existentialism laid the foundation for how he would defend his later policies, policies that brought death, destruction and misery to millions of people. If history is already tragedy and life is suffering, then absolution comes with a world-weary shrug. There isn't much anyone individual can do to make things worse than they already are. Wow, so a lot of criticism.

Sam: 8:05

But um, it's complicated, just like a few people we've talked about recently so what are some of the the things that, from what you understand that he did, that was considered bad?

Tayla: 8:20

Before I get into that, I do want to get into, like some of the history before he became sure.

Sam: 8:25

Yeah, yeah cuz.

Tayla: 8:26

It is a very interesting history and one that I didn't know as much about because I study political science and international relations in school, so I focused a lot on Well, in those sections of our foreign policy we focused on Henry Kissinger, but I didn't learn that much about his history in his background. So here are a couple things. So he was actually born Heinz Kissinger and he was a German born, jewish refugee and he moved to New York with his family in 1938 after the Nazis had seized power, so very important time to leave. And when he came to the States he changed his name to Henry and worked as an interpreter in the US Army during World War II, which would have been very, very yeah, well.

Tayla: 9:12

So after the war he ended up going to Harvard and got his doctorate and became part of the government faculty of Harvard where he was for 20 years in that faculty and he kind of became prominent at that point. That's that's where his name started becoming More recognizable. He had built a name for himself specific to international relations. He acted as a consultant so not an official appointment, but as a consultant to the National Security Council, and he specifically studied nuclear policy and international relations. So the interesting thing is do you remember which president he served under first?

Tayla: 9:51

Nixon that's right. Kissinger did not want Nixon to become the president. He actually actively supported the campaign of Nelson Rockefeller, who later became the vice president when Nixon resigned.

Sam: 10:06

But which will put a pin in there for a second because of that support of Rockefeller. There's all ton of conspiracies, like you know, because the fellas come with a lot of conspiracies, right? So a lot of people like Ty Kissinger to all these like conspiracy theories.

Tayla: 10:20

I mean, he is a, he's a Running thread and the whole.

Sam: 10:24

Thing.

Tayla: 10:24

So you'd see that. But um, back to his disdain for Nixon. He famously called Nixon the most dangerous of the presidential candidates. In 1968, I think, eventually changed his mind and they offered to help Nixon win the election, which he did. And then in 1968 he, nixon, appointed him to his cabinet as the National Security Advisor and then later, five years later, elevated him to the Secretary of State. So just quite the twist, because I never would see that coming. That's like, what's it modern equivalent to what that would be like?

Sam: 11:02

Oh, there's a few with the whole Trump campaign. Yeah, it's like Liz.

Tayla: 11:05

Cheney? Is that how you pronounce it, liz Cheney, all of a sudden being like, okay, well, I'll help Trump Trump win. She's done everything to prevent him from winning well Ted Cruz.

Sam: 11:15

So everyone would say you know all the other candidates would bend the knee to Trump after he would like get further along in the campaign. So, like he famously, like just you know, was really cruel and mean and said horrible things about Ted Cruz and Ted Cruz you know back. And then all of a sudden, ted Cruz turns around and supports him. Right, right, right.

Tayla: 11:33

Bizarre, that's true. So it is. I mean it happens today. And what's what's new or surprising today in politics? But anyway, when Kissinger first became the Secretary of State, the biggest, quick, quickest, first Diplomatic challenge he faced was the 1973. That same year he was appointed Arab-Israeli war. So he his role in helping To eventually negotiate peace agreements became known as shuttle diplomacy, because he flew around to a bunch of different Middle Eastern countries To get the deal done. And that's something that secretaries of state Typically maintain. They travel a lot, they like physically go to get deals done. So it's still in use 50 years later. Secretary of State Blinken has currently been jumping between different Middle Eastern countries like right in that same area, even today during this Israel Hamas war. So just kind of. So that's one big impactful like Not revolutionary, but unique thing that he did that has remained since he left. What do you think about that? Because I feel like it's a surprise to me that that wasn't commonly done beforehand.

Sam: 12:45

Yeah, I wonder, especially considering the communication, maybe just wasn't just as intimately involved, and you know that he birthed the hustle culture for diplomats.

Tayla: 12:57

Hmm, hustle culture. Huh, I like that. I like that, make a t-shirt. So here's where our first Pretty controversial occurs. It is, it's pretty horrible. Here we go. From 1969 to 1974, kissinger himself directed carpet bombings. So this is Bombings that are meant to take out entire cities, entire areas. Yeah, so he directed the carpet bombing of large pots of Cambodia, which the US officials claimed were sanctuaries for communists. But the problem is, to this day, landmines planted from that war are still killing innocent people, and a bunch of innocent people are being killed from 1969 to now because of that.

Sam: 13:46

Yeah.

Tayla: 13:48

So that's pretty controversial, right. And you kind of see, I mean this is interesting, right. I mean Israel's kind of claiming the same stuff. They're like oh, hamas is under all these tunnels, therefore we should just bomb the they're hiding under the hospitals. It's okay for us to still bomb them. Just to you know the. The end justifies the means.

Sam: 14:08

Yeah, no, it's, I think. Look, I've got a long opinion regarding this.

Tayla: 14:16

All right, this is the time, here we go, so we're recording, so I so there's a number of these like this is a list.

Sam: 14:23

I mean, looked at the list of all the things that you know, all his policies that killed. You know probably millions of people.

Tayla: 14:29

Kissinger yeah.

Sam: 14:30

Kissinger's. You know foreign policy. So, yeah, there's, you know, cambodia, which is associated with Vietnam. There's Chile, there's Argentina, there's there's sub-Saharan Africa. There's a whole lot of things that he got involved with and and Very much got involved in other countries, Politics, where they would, you know, elect someone and you know, because it was communist here, get involved and had that CIA, you know, help overthrow governments, etc. There's a lot of these things. When you look at it, though in at the time, so these are all bad things, just so you know like I I don't support, because I'm more ideological and I don't support the killing of millions of people, but he was a very Pragmatic approach to everything.

Tayla: 15:23

Why don't you to kind of define that for people who just haven't heard that term very much?

Sam: 15:26

So again, I'm not an expert, so but basically, if you're ideological, you you know you believe in, like what it should be what it should be right you believe in, like, hey, we shouldn't kill people, so you don't kill people, it doesn't matter what the situation is, you keep going, we shouldn't kill people or at least prioritize.

Tayla: 15:43

Yeah, exactly.

Sam: 15:44

Pragmatic goes hey, you know, this person is going to kill five people, so therefore I'm going to kill him. So it's, it's, you know.

Tayla: 15:55

Yeah, it's almost like a practical. You could almost use those interchangeably of like what will get me the result I need in the most efficient way.

Sam: 16:04

Yeah, so when you look at his worldview at the time. He's looking at the world through a Communism versus capitalism or Soviet versus American umbrella or like lenses. That's literally the only lens he looked through most of this stuff like all red scare stuff, exactly. So and we can keep. Well, after this, let's come keep. We're wanting backwards. So he, every decision he makes is to defeat or to preempt what they thought would be a Soviet world war. You know this right.

Sam: 16:37

So any sort of support for communism anywhere around the world. He has America get involved and kill people. That's pretty much the To prevent yeah. The pragmatic approach because he thinks, and a lot of people thought, if the Soviets start this war and they have different constituencies and countries around the world that support the Soviet cause, communism, then we are. It's a worse world, so they go, we don't mind killing.

Tayla: 17:03

The greater good.

Sam: 17:04

Yeah, the greater good. So let's kill 100,000 people here, let's kill this, let's put our governments in place there. That was the pragmatic approach, and we don't know what is better for the world because we only live in this Tamlan. But it wasn't an ideological decision. There were pragmatic decisions and maybe that's why he's respected by Putin and it's also why he made the deals that he did right, which is he made the deals with China, tries to make the deals with Russia, just so that he can create peace.

Tayla: 17:38

And I think it's important to remember that, historically, the people that he was trying to negotiate with make these compromises with, at least when he's being diplomatic, versus carpet bombing places. They're notoriously very adverse to being diplomatic, very adverse to pragmatic solutions, to using logic to make decisions outside of the emotional, like my country first. So it is a lot of an accomplishment in that way that it's like oh I mean the Cold War negotiating with the Soviet Union, unheard of, like no one would have ever thought something like that would happen. Same with like trying to end the Vietnamese War. We'll get into a couple of these in a moment. But it is kind of an accomplishment. It was huge and it was life changing, particularly for the experience of Americans at the time, for the better.

Sam: 18:30

Yeah.

Tayla: 18:32

And that was worth the cost. That's what's debatable.

Sam: 18:34

Yeah, Because I mean so, I think this all like this. It's so funny that all this hinges around one singular person, this discussion.

Tayla: 18:43

Truly.

Sam: 18:44

Kissinger writes. But this whole thing, kind of because I was trying to, I kept digging in deeper and deeper and deeper this week like where does this all start? Like, you know, if you know, why is this such a big deal? Why is this such a big deal to? You know, combat the Soviet Union, russia, communism, and so you have to rewind back to World War II because I was like I mean, I swear we're, you know, fighting with the Russians in World War II, to we were yeah, absolutely.

Sam: 19:14

And then off, obviously, after World War II, you know, the United States and Russia, the Soviet Union, become to the two large world powers and there's a struggle there, and so that's, that struggle for world dominance is what actually, you know, caused the Cold War, which that Cold War again includes all these other little things you know with you know, the Cambodian bombings etc.

Tayla: 19:38

Everything, yeah.

Sam: 19:40

Everything, and so it's. It's all under that umbrella. When you look at it as as a whole thing, you can see the reasoning behind it Like, hey, we've got to stop Russia from becoming the world superpower. We need to be, because we believe in freedom, we believe in capitalism, and so it's an ideological thing.

Tayla: 19:56

Right.

Sam: 19:58

So I was like, why did we? Why did this happen this way? And if you look before World War II, you end up seeing that we weren't friends before World War II and that in fact this started back when I think it was like the early 1900s, like right around World War I. When you have the what are they called? The Bolsheviks or something, where you have the red versus the white in Russia, basically communism overthrows the Tsar in Russia and that's pretty much the source, I guess, where you kind of have communism takes over this ideological idea where the people collectively own everything as a collective and you kind of destroy the hierarchy of governments. You destroy the hierarchy. This is the ideal. This is not what actually happens. You destroy that and you believe in this equality for everyone. What actually happens is you end up with a dictatorship.

Tayla: 20:57

It just looks totally. Yeah, it's the same result, which is that the people are hurt, but and someone's in power getting millions of dollars.

Sam: 21:05

But yeah, so the United States and Western Europe actually got involved at that time and ended up losing. They supported the Watts, they ended up losing, and so there's already bad blood Before we even go into World War II and in fact it ends up we're almost like forced allies going into World War II or part of World War II.

Sam: 21:24

Yeah, very reluctant allies and then afterwards you kind of reignites that whole. We don't believe in your ideology. In fact we're scared of it. And because your ideology is pushing for complete overthrows of lots of governments around the world and destabilizing everything and they're supporting and you're like the flag bearer of this new ideology. And we're afraid of it enough to start a witch hunt and get an inquisition against people who we suspect might even be in kahoots with you, Calvin Coolidge. Right, right, yeah, I think so yeah.

Tayla: 21:58

So it is so interesting to think back on and I can very much understand, especially with the lack of access to information, to education, to globalism and understanding how other places work. The moment you have someone and it's a classic dictator move that still occurs even today in 21st century America where someone comes in, highlights all the problems everyone's frustrated with, makes it seem insurmountable, and then somehow they're the savior, they're the one here to fix it all.

Tayla: 22:30

No one could do it, only me. I'm your savior and so. But I can understand the appeal of it because you're like yeah, this feels so overwhelming. Someone feels like they have the vision and the confidence to get it done and they're doing stuff very different to how I'm seeing it done before. Maybe we should try this way, since the way we're doing it right now isn't working.

Sam: 22:50

But all this to say that, um, yeah, kiss and Jerb, I guess, going back to what, Well, I was going to say that that's the same ideological war is still happening today, Like in the United States. It's this, it's you know Russia is using social media, it's using bots, it's using all sorts of propaganda to kind of push its ideology.

Tayla: 23:20

What are we on right now, man, man, it's awesome yeah.

Sam: 23:25

So they're pushing that to try to change the American. I'm going to leave that word out. You can have AI fix it for me. So, yeah, they're trying to change the public opinion of the American people, so is China, and, but the thing is the United States, as we try to do the same thing, you know, with around the world, with the West trying to, you know, put a McDonald's every single place that you can push push capitalism.

Sam: 23:49

But you know, I think capitalism is a great thing. I think giving everyone the ability to compete is good. So, from least from me, in my perspective, I'm supportive of capitalism. I'm supportive of the that idea that you know, you can succeed on your own and get rewarded on your own Social capitalism. But yeah. However, I don't believe in pure capitalism because I end up the same problem you end up with dictators and you end up with monopolies?

Tayla: 24:19

Yes, money driven rather than ideological. Absolutely yeah, so excuse me. Yeah, but he's involved in a lot of these decisions. Though to like and justify that using these similar things, I mean, but look at China today.

Sam: 24:32

China today literally has what they call economic free zone, free zones which they basically, which is basically saying hey, here, shenzhen, you literally can't operate like you are a capitalistic society, because they see that it, that it works, so there. So China is very pragmatic in their approach to leveraging yeah, yeah, they they. They will take any ideology I get so close to, and then my tongue just gives up and they'll use it to benefit themselves, right?

Tayla: 25:07

So serious Good job. So, they will, they will. They are very pragmatic. In that way, it'll be like China will make sure we win, no matter yeah.

Sam: 25:18

Well they, they put China first. So just and that and think that's. Maybe that's why Henry Kissinger does get a lot of like street cred from a lot of these other large nations just storing in some language for the kids.

Sam: 25:33

And because he took a pragmatic. Pragmatic approach for the United States, like, hey, I'm representing and supporting the United States, I'm not not here to like, do anything else. Here's our goals, here's what we want. How can we, you know, not go to war? How can we not nuke each other? How can we get our goals and carve out space for your goals? That was basically the approach to it.

Tayla: 26:00

True.

Sam: 26:00

And so, in some ways, though, there's not very good on a global scale, because, again, it involves him being OK with killing almost one million Cambodians.

Tayla: 26:11

Right, I would say it just highlights as well the amount of power that the Secretary of State does have, and I feel like we see that a lot less currently, or we just are not as aware of the impact that they have and the purview that they have. The only reason we know about a bunch of this stuff is because after, I think, 70 years, things become declassified, and so then we have those access to those records that are no longer classified, and so it was actually in declassified records that we found out that Kissinger himself approved each of the 3,875 Cambodia bombing raids. That's not bombs, yeah, he's bombing raids which in which, as you said, hundreds of thousands of people died. So the problem with those decisions even though he had and again, this was one of the first ones he faced, was this Cambodian one was that some historians say that this bombing campaign actually contributed to the rise in the totalitarian Khmer Rouge regime, where a dictator, pol Pot, killed more people, estimated 2 million people, which is a quarter of the Cambodians at the time.

Tayla: 27:23

And this is the problem is, by picking the side, essentially, you don't. You're either coming in and you're dictating to a country exactly what happens after you leave, or you kind of pick off what you perceive as the enemy and another terrible person comes in that's just not communist, but they're a dictator and a monster in another way. And that happened time and time after again. And that's a lot of people criticizes like okay, sure you got rid of the communist regimes, of what did you leave for these people murderers? Yeah, absolutely.

Tayla: 27:58

So yeah so before the Tea Party went off the rail.

Sam: 28:00

So I'm going to kind of circle back to, you know, the United States involvement in all this. Before the Tea Party went off the rails with what they stand for today, who knows what crazy thing it was. Originally kind of grew around the Republican presidential candidate, Ron Paul, and one of the things I liked about Ron Paul was that he had the foreign policy idea of non-interventionalism, which is basically saying hey, this is your problem. You guys sort of like you understand this. You guys over there and whatever part of Africa, whatever you know, you're not going to be able to get out of the way. We can have our you know sanctions, we can do other things, but we're not going to come in there and tell you how to do it. We're not going to come in there and kind of ruin and middle with everything. We're not the world police. America itself and I like that diplomacy focuses on the United States where Tayla's just shaking her head.

Tayla: 28:53

in grumpiness, you'll have a chance to speak, so I don't know why you make me laugh so hard today, but I'm digging it.

Sam: 29:02

So I like that, whereas it's a last resort thing, not as in hey, we're proactively, all the time considered, hey, we need to get involved in everything, which is an interventionist kind of mindset, which is what Henry Kissinger was doing.

Sam: 29:18

He was literally like, but getting involved in every little thing that could have been extreme socialism or communism. So I feel like we should gravitate more towards that focus on making the United States a much better place and rather be looked to as an example to inspire people to be like yes, and I think that's what's happened with capitalism in China is that they've seen how successful you can be with it. They've seen, like, how it changes people's lives, it changes society's lives, and I think that that has worked more well than any other sort of intervention that we've done elsewhere.

Tayla: 29:57

Yeah, it's just so un-American in that and this is what I mean by that is like it's very American to see abuse of humans and to be like, ah, we're just not going to tolerate it. It's not okay. And I would say that we have like leaned more into foreign policy in which we are more isolationist, we are less interventionist. That is true in comparison to even 10 years ago, 15 years ago. But that's what's happening right now is we're kind of trying to like not get involved with the murder of tons of innocent Palestinians by trying to be like you got to sort this out. We're not going to tell you how to do your job, but you should do your job this way. But that's the hard thing to grapple with is like, yes, ideologically that is true, that should be how it is, that everyone is responsible for their own stuff. But at the same time, when it comes to the sanctity of human life and well-being, and especially when it comes to innocence, it's kind of like we're really just gonna, especially when you have propped yourself up, as I mean, the history of being a world police is there. You can't just we're not the world police, you can't just say we're not when we kind of are and we justify our military spending and prowess that way. It's just kind of, especially when you have the means to make a difference. It's how do you do it? Now I think the US has gotten a lot better at trying to help, try to do this in conjunction with the right powers that be in every institution, like if they're.

Tayla: 31:34

When they got involved with World War II, it was very much in conjunction with the governments of Western Europe that were there. It wasn't us coming in and then winning the war and then determining what they do with the wreckage that remains. We formed the UN and had a council of people trying to do this together collaboratively. That's definitely where I'm at, where it's like we'll try to do it collaboratively. That is a very frustrating process to try and get countries with very different ideologies to kind of agree on it on a plan forward. But that's democracy and I think that's. I think pretty much. I think somewhere in the middle. I don't think getting involved to Kiss and Juris extent is healthy or right, but also just being like Ron Paul and be like you know, you just take care of yourselves, we'll just be here taking care of ourselves. I don't think that's either realistic or right either.

Sam: 32:25

Well, yeah, so he had a very extreme opinion about it, saying sort of opinion he had about the Federal Reserve. He wanted to get rid of the Federal Reserve and then also move us back to a gold standard, which, I mean, is great, would have been great, but we missed the boat on that.

Tayla: 32:40

So we can't really unwind that. Same thing. You can't say we're not, yeah, same thing. It's like there's a period of time in which you could maybe make a more extreme switch in a way that's not so detrimental but, it's a little bit past that time.

Sam: 32:53

Yeah, so I don't know Henry Kissinger my thoughts and opinions.

Tayla: 32:58

Back to Henry Heinz.

Sam: 33:00

Obviously a very smart strategic. I never got to see him in action, so but from what I've heard and read a very gifted speaker in terms of like interpersonal communication.

Tayla: 33:19

Education.

Sam: 33:20

Very passionate. But, yeah, it comes with the dark side and I don't know what sort of country we would be today without him.

Tayla: 33:32

To be honest, that's impossible to know because, again, like this is, it's so interesting to see how much power this one person had over something that still shapes how we do everything today. I feel a bit overworse and maybe, even if it's not the same way he did it, the way he did it affected how we've changed. So yeah, this dictator propping up issue, it's a thing. I'll go over a couple more where he got involved and dictators followed. So Latin America you mentioned this earlier. He regularly sided with right wing governments accused of violent crimes Chile, argentina you spoke about that. And in East Timur, t-i-m-o-r. How are you pronounced that? He gave a green light to an invasion by Indonesia which led to as many as 200,000 deaths. There's also a coup in Cyprus. This is just about a few examples of just like kind of major things, but he was even involved in helping Portugal change its system of government too.

Tayla: 34:37

That's true man. He shaped so not just our government but so many, the histories of so many countries and the millions of people that reside in them.

Sam: 34:48

And you have to understand like again, after that time period, after World War II through to like the 70s and 80s, there was massive world change in terms of what governments people were trying to change to or set up. I mean, even look at South Africa. Yeah absolutely so I could change to what it is today during that same time frame, like I know. Obviously it only happened in 1994.

Tayla: 35:14

The actual but it's as a result of yeah, it is a result, yeah, it's a legacy result. Yeah, mm-hmm. So he was so impactful and was working for whatever demographic was going on at the time, so he stayed on in his role under Gerald Ford who replaced Nixon post-resignation. Yeah, that's a whole other thing. But his legacy that I think he would like to have left, and that it's arguable that he did, was that we've spoken about this to think broadly about America's role in the world and to create a post-Cold War globalized world in which we live today. And so I mentioned this in the intro.

Tayla: 36:00

But he's credited with building the relationship with China that we have, which was non-existent pretty much at the time. It was unimaginable at the time that we could have a relationship, never mind a diplomatic, positive relationship, between the US and China. And then we spoke about the taunt with the Soviet Union. He opened the dialogue between the Soviet Union. The taunt is it pretty much means easing tensions through dialogue, so diplomacy, and it led to the first major nuclear arms control treaty between the US and the Soviet Union. So it's, that's huge, I mean that's, that was a, I mean it still is, it still affects us. But like that standoff of like let's agree to not blow up the world is like still kind of what we're relying on now.

Sam: 36:52

Yeah, no, and I'll be honest, there's still. If you're in the back of my mind, at some point there's gonna be some dictator that just says you know what, I'm gonna die anyway. So just.

Tayla: 37:01

I'm gonna blow it all up A murder suicide of the world? Yeah, it's horrifying to think about. I don't like to think about it, but should we talk about kind of post secretary of state world Kissinger? Cause this, like I said, this guy just kept going.

Sam: 37:20

Yeah, so if I understand, he was part of a few think tanks, so it was always, you know, consulting and advising on those. And then I know that he still kept up with, like his relationship with the Chinese political figures and even just recently had gone to China to go meet with some officials to kind of help with these tensions there.

Tayla: 37:43

Yeah, and those he has, he kind of has. There's one in particular thing, tank, and I can't remember what it's called right now, but it's he was. He worked with him for decades and, like you said, he had built such strong relationships that he maintained them like post power to like really do much. I mean, he was still very influential, absolutely, so it's to someone's benefit to be in a relationship with him. But, yeah, let's talk about the Jewish background that he has, cause he has such a unique, weird relationship with his Jewish history.

Sam: 38:19

Yeah, I saw that he like actually is not very proud of it, that that was the one that said he was unfortunately born Jewish, or something like that. I don't remember the quotes. It sounds hilarious.

Tayla: 38:32

Yeah, he said if it were not for the accident of his birth as a Jew, he would be anti-Semitic. Going on to say that quote any people who has been persecuted for 2000 years must be doing something wrong. Close quote.

Sam: 38:49

I'm gonna be honest, that sounds like a very like Jewish thing to say, like a joke, like you know, like a comedian, like you know, just self-deprecating kind of yeah it doesn't seem like a real thing.

Tayla: 39:00

someone would say it seems like a setup for like just absolute mind confusion of like what that's like me.

Tayla: 39:09

If I were not a woman, I would be a masochist. No, not masochist, a misogynist , but like. What a weird thing to say. It's like someone. I just feel like that's odd. He had a recorded conversation between him and Nixon at some point where he said that the immigration of Jews into the Soviet Union had nothing to do with the US and he said, quote if they put Jews into gas chambers in the Soviet Union, it is not an American concern, maybe a humanitarian concern. Close quote, as if those things are not the same. And this is where kind of my comments earlier came, where I was like, yeah, I get the pragmatism and the idea of you just cannot extract human suffering and the human experience from the decisions you're making and what you care about. So he's an interesting guy, just a weird guy. He was known as a ladies man back in the day too. He had like people constantly set him up with like Hollywood starlets at the time. I think he was seen with let me see where's the list of.

Sam: 40:16

Well, he wasn't. You know. His last name used to be just Henry Isinger, and then, after all the stuff, they changed his last name to Henry Kissinger.

Tayla: 40:26

That is the most dad joke of dad jokes you could have made, goodness gracious me.

Sam: 40:33

On the fly, there you go, you're welcome.

Tayla: 40:36

So a couple of starlets that he was seen with Jill St John, shirley MacLaine, marlo Thomas, candice Bergen. He even dated Diane Sawyer when she was a White House star for so he was often just taking these fancy stars of the time to like public events and fancy restaurants, just interesting. But as George W Bush alluded to, his influence and role in foreign diplomacy did not end when he left his office. He was in frequent Communicado with secretaries of state, including Anthony Blinken, hillary Clinton, condoleezza Rice, mike Pompeo. Every single one of these people just kind of relied on his ear and his expertise.

Tayla: 41:21

This past summer, aka 100 year old, henry Kissinger traveled to China as a guest of Xi Jinping I don't know if I pronounced that right the Chinese president. And that president said China and the United States relations will forever be linked to the name of Henry Kissinger. And I'm seeing the picture of him from this summer and he looks not a hundred years old, like he looks Pretty good for his age. But I can't even imagine traveling to China from the US as a 29 year old. Like that's a long flight, right, you've made it.

Sam: 41:59

Yeah, I've done it a couple times. Yeah, it's a decently big flight and not as long as you think, but yeah it's a big how long? It's like, I don't know like a couple flights. Well, so we went flew to Hong Kong from Salt Lake, just a straight shot.

Tayla: 42:13

Really.

Sam: 42:13

Yeah, I think it's only like 14 hours, I think.

Tayla: 42:16

Oh see, think of like my body is aching just thinking about 14 hours on a flight which I've been on frequently. But it hurts. Can't even imagine what a hundred years old would be like. Maybe he got like the exact sweet or got like to lie down or whatever.

Sam: 42:30

But, yeah, maybe he flew a private jet, which he probably did, which he probably did. Yeah, the flight time, because I actually want to know this flight, so I took on a flight time. It is you're going to be super interested in this 19 hours I was way off.

Tayla: 42:51

Goodness gracious, that's doesn't your body, just you joints. Just ache Thinking about that and again I'm in my 20s for another couple months, which I'll claim. So, 100 years old, traveling overseas.

Sam: 43:05

This one says 14 hours.

Tayla: 43:06

So maybe it depends on the direction you let like West always.

Sam: 43:10

Yeah, 14 hours, but this one was 14 and a half.

Tayla: 43:13

Okay, so you were. You were right. I was right and wrong at the same time.

Sam: 43:17

Shrodingers Sam.

Tayla: 43:21

I don't know what that is.

Sam: 43:24

Shrodingers cat box. I guess there's the cat dead or or alive, and what.

Tayla: 43:32

Okay you have to go way, way back.

Sam: 43:34

Okay, well, because so I'm right and wrong at the same time, oh, you know, okay, so it's.

Tayla: 43:40

What does that have to do with a dead cat?

Sam: 43:43

Okay, so it's, it's, it's okay. I'm just going to read the Wikipedia of this.

Tayla: 43:47

Let me just give you a second. Okay, please. I need to know.

Sam: 43:50

Okay, so it's called Shrodingers cat right? So in quantum mechanics it's a thought experiment, sometimes described as a paradox or quantum super super position In the thought experiments. Okay, following me,Tayla?

Tayla: 44:04

I'm fine.

Sam: 44:05

A hypothetical cat may be considered simultaneously both alive and dead, while it is unobserved unobserved in a closed box as a result of its fate being linked to a random subatomic event that may or may not occur. This thought experiment was divided by physicist you know, erwin Shrodinger, 1935. It illustrates what Shrodinger saw as the problems of the Copenhagen I'm just reading Wikipedia here, so I'm not that small. Copenhagen's interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Tayla: 44:41

It doesn't clarify things, but both right and wrong at the same time.

Sam: 44:48

Yes.

Tayla: 44:48

When you were reading that, all I thought was like is this the same kind of like? If a tree falls and no one's there to hear it, does it fall? If knowing observes the cat in the box, is it really dead? But I don't think that's. I don't think I got it at all. But yes, you're both right and wrong.

Sam: 45:05

Okay, and you are both right and wrong, I'm gonna yeah, exactly, I'm gonna put a link in the description of the somewhere so people can see a link to Shrodinger's cat.

Tayla: 45:12

Educate yourself.

Sam: 45:14

Educate yourself. Yeah, so it's got to do with, basically, at this, this, this, some point in time, when you observe the box, the cat is both alive and dead when you're observing it.

Tayla: 45:24

No, it's not possible. I'm, I'm, I'm shooting down this quantum physicist, this is funny enough.

Sam: 45:35

Again, this, this thought experiment happened around the same time as, like you know, right before we were watching Red Scare. Yeah, you know the original Red Scare, goodness gracious me.

Tayla: 45:42

What a time to be alive. Well, all this to say Henry Kissinger. May he rest in peace. Question mark just depending on who you ask.

Sam: 45:52

Or may he rule in hell.

Tayla: 45:54

May he rule in hell. Thanks for listening to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam: 46:04

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