Nelson Mandela

What if your love for a sport could turn into a powerful force for unity and justice? Prepare to embark on an enlightening journey into the legacy of Nelson Mandela and how his passion for rugby played an instrumental role in uniting South Africa. We'll recount the unforgettable moment when South Africa emerged victorious in the 1995 Rugby World Cup, establishing rugby as a unifying force for the nation, a legacy that endures today.

Shifting gears, we'll scrutinize the intricate aspects of Mandela's political journey, from a fervent militant to a peaceful advocate for change after enduring 27 grueling years in prison. We'll explore the moral implications of violence used as a last resort, and the role of the Truth and Reconciliation process in healing a divided nation. This intriguing part of Mandela's story is bound to leave you fascinated and more informed about the complexities of his legacy.

Finally, allow us to illuminate the power of Nelson Mandela's words and their profound implications on our shared consciousness. We’ll peel back the layers of his timeless quotes to reveal their deep-seated meanings, and how they resonate with his vision for a just and equal society. As tribute to this transformative figure, we delve into his life, legacy and the profound impact he had on South Africa and the world. This episode is not just an education, it's an invitation to reflect on the power of perseverance, unity, and the human spirit.

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What do you know about the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo, Sam

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:32

Well, good evening, world champion.

Sam: 0:36

Oh, I think you realize you're talking to me.

Tayla: 0:40

I mean, who else would I be talking to?

Sam: 0:42

I don't know if you're like addressing.

Tayla: 0:43

you know people at least, and If there's an African, then yes, I am.

Sam: 0:49

Yeah, what? Yeah, I mean, it feels good.

Tayla: 0:53

It does. It was a crazy guys. I tried to get you to watch it the rugby World Cup finals South Africa against New Zealand and we were not disappointed. It was a crazy game. There were four yellow cards in the one game and one of those turned into a red card Wild and our like one of our really important players, got injured and couldn't come back on within like the first two minutes of playing.

Sam: 1:22

Like literally so okay. So a bit of background here. Our main, one of our main forward players, like the one of the big guys, got injured early in the tournament, so we played with our secondary forward guy.

Tayla: 1:33

Yep.

Sam: 1:34

This secondary guy gets injured literally at minute number two, and so now we're playing with a guy that doesn't play this position and he's just having to come and I mean he's practiced as a backup, backup, but yeah, that's not his natural position. He did great. Yeah, he did really well.

Tayla: 1:52

We did well. I mean it was close, we only won by one and they were playing with a man down. I mean we played with a man down for 20 minutes of the game too, but they played for longer with a man down because of the red card. And they did really well. Yeah, I think we just our first. We started our first half, we kind of were obliterating them and we just kind of could hold it from there. They did really really well in the second half.

Tayla: 2:16

So props but, also, I always love beating the all backs because for some reason everyone thinks they're the best team in the world and they are very, very good.

Sam: 2:26

Yeah.

Tayla: 2:27

But that's a very debatable statement and people act like it's not.

Sam: 2:30

Yeah, oh man. Yeah, it was a good watch, though nonetheless. I mean, we won the quarter finals by one, semi finals by one and then the finals by one. So it's kind of too much stress for me.

Tayla: 2:40

Truly we like to keep keep people on the edge of their seat, but I just love it. I love how the team is so focused on the bigger impact outside of rugby on the country, which it is true like such a unifying, important thing for the country to be able to kind of have the stream that we succeed in.

Sam: 3:01

Yeah.

Tayla: 3:03

But speaking of which we are going to be talking, not, I guess, about rugby or necessarily about South Africa, but we will. There is a connection here, yeah there is a big connection between all of it and that is the man, the myth, the legend, nelson Mandela. So let me do my little intro and let's get into it.

Tayla: 3:21

Nelson Mandela was an iconic figure in history, renowned for his unwavering pursuit of justice, peace and equality. He was born July 18th 1918 in South Africa. He became a prominent anti-apartheid politician and a philanthropist, and he faced and we'll talk more about details of all of this but he spent 27 years in prison for fighting South Africa's oppressive system of racial segregation. He was released from prison in 1990 and four years later he became the country's first democratically elected black Well, first properly democratically elected president in general, but also the first black president. Throughout his presidency champion reconciliation, unity and justice and is a remarkable legacy of, and symbol of, peace, forgiveness and perseverance that still inspires people to this day. So, babe, what do you know about Nelson Mandela? A?

Sam: 4:22

little bit. I don't know. I'd say as much as I should for being, you know, south African, but I know some.

Tayla: 4:31

Yeah, okay, so here's the rugby connection.

Sam: 4:36

So Nelson Mandela was the president in 1995 and that was the first rugby World Cup that South Africa was allowed to play in, because apartheid had ended and there was no longer bands across the board for South Africa to participate in everything. So I got to watch this live. I was a big, you know, big into rugby growing up, so this was like I was one yeah this is a big deal and we won that rugby World Cup, yeah, and it's, yeah, quite the story.

Sam: 5:07

I mean, there's a movie about it and Victus and not one of the things Nelson Mandela did. So rugby was at this time and before this time was typically a white sports.

Tayla: 5:17

Absolutely.

Sam: 5:18

And so what he did was, though, became a big supporter of rugby and basically was saying hey, this should be a whole South African sport, this shouldn't just be like a white sport or a black sport, like every South African should be supporting South African rugby, and he was there to support the mostly white South African rugby team at the time, and that was a really big deal, and for the white population there was like a hey, like this this is one of the big signs and showings that this president really does want to have a unified country, doesn't?

Tayla: 5:50

matter what race you are, yeah.

Sam: 5:52

So, anyways, that's his connection to the rugby thing and and still to this day, rugby is like huge huge. It's still is this big unifying thing for the country. The country is torn apart, it's struggling with so many things, but the one thing I literally like, the one thing the whole country gets behind, is rugby and this specific squad.

Tayla: 6:14

And that's the interesting thing is, I believe that's the last time that we played the All Blacks in a rugby World Cup final Correct.

Sam: 6:21

Correct.

Tayla: 6:23

So you know 2023, we got to have a redo and one again as well. Invictus very good movie, not 100% historically accurate, as these movies tend to not be. Matt Damon did such a good job with his like Africana accent. I heard that he learned the accent by getting drunk with the locals in different bars.

Sam: 6:48

Makes sense to me.

Tayla: 6:50

Wasn't it Morgan Freeman that played Nelson Mandela?

Sam: 6:52

Yeah.

Tayla: 6:53

He did a great job playing him and a terrible job with the accent specifically, but he did a good job acting. So let's talk a bit about Mandela's background. So, as I said, he was born in 1918 in the Eastern Cape, which is a province of South Africa, and he grew up in a rural village and was actually the son of a tribal chief. And I can't I should have.

Tayla: 7:15

Maybe you can look this up his his actual tribal name, his actual given name. He was given the name Nelson by, I believe, nuns when he was growing up, kind of an English name that he was given. But he did have a pretty early exposure to African history and politics which did shape his passion for justice later on. So do you have yeah, so. Whether you can pronounce it or not, it's.

Sam: 7:45

It means trouble maker, it's a Seriously. That all's a name.

Tayla: 7:51

Amazing. So it means trouble maker. Why don't you spell it for us at least?

Sam: 7:54

I think it's. Yeah, it's man, I can't even say that, it's like Rola-shla-shla or something like that. So it's R-O-L-I-H-L, which is a sh yeah that sound, and then A-H-L-A Now I don't know what was that very well at all, and oh, I'm talking away from the mic.

Tayla: 8:16

Yes, that was pretty good, I think though, yeah, trouble maker, which I think is accurate. That's not always a bad thing.

Sam: 8:24

Yeah, and he was also called Mediba because of that's the name of the clan. That was the name of the trump.

Tayla: 8:29

The Mediba clan. I didn't know that, that was why. But yeah, that's his nickname. That's why people say Mediba, they mean Nelson Mandela.

Sam: 8:35

Yeah.

Tayla: 8:36

Cool, cool. So in the 1940s he becomes increasingly involved in politics. He joined the African National Congress, otherwise known as the ANC, which was a political organization fighting against the apartheid, which was like a legal system of racial segregation and discrimination in South Africa, and his activism did lead to his arrest and subsequent trial in 1963, where he was sentenced to life imprisonment for sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government.

Sam: 9:10

Yeah, it would kind of be akin to the United States and how they had the reservations. Basically, people had their homelands and then said you operate in those homelands and you can participate in some small levels in the greater country, like get a job, but only certain kinds of jobs, and you could only be in the non homelands after oh sorry within a certain time, like those curfews.

Tayla: 9:37

Yeah, curfews, you couldn't use the same facilities.

Sam: 9:41

And I mean the literal definition of apartheid comes from South Africa, because that's what they called, basically a separation.

Tayla: 9:46

Yeah, a partners.

Sam: 9:48

And that's where I guess segregation was similar as well.

Tayla: 9:51

Yeah, and I think that that's an accurate view of what apartheid was, but a tame one.

Sam: 9:59

Oh yeah, we didn't get to the bet. Like I was just like the political description, not like how socially Well, even just even politically.

Tayla: 10:06

I think that was kind of like a tame description. You literally couldn't have certain jobs qualified, not qualified, like you're black. It's too bad. You're not white. Oh, you are white, grow, you, go ahead. So and then, yeah, as you said, socially it was literally illegal to have interracial relationships not legal.

Sam: 10:28

Yeah, that's literally Trevor Noah's like life story, right? Yeah, he's a mixed race, and so his mom was like, you know, like he didn't know his father, because it was literally Like he knew who. Yeah, yeah.

Tayla: 10:40

So if you guys don't know who Trevor Noah is, he is a prominent South African comedian who took over the Daily Show for John Stuart John.

Tayla: 10:48

Stuart and he has an autobiography that I really recommend people read. It is a very good read and very funny but so touching at the same time, and it's called Born a Crime because literally it was illegal for him to exist. His mom was, I believe she was Corsa is Corsa, and his dad was a Swedish white man, and somehow he became and they had to pass him off as an albino kid in order for him to know, like his mom, to not get in trouble, they would hide him from authorities.

Sam: 11:25

To kind of place this in like timeframe. Trevor Noah is pretty much exactly my age.

Tayla: 11:31

Yeah, so he grew up like his single digit childhood was in this apartheid.

Sam: 11:38

So like I grew up, like the first six to 10 years of my life and like with apartheid fully in practice.

Tayla: 11:46

Yeah, and I, conversely, I was born the year that Nassim Adela was elected. So let me talk about why he was arrested and his involvement there, cause a lot of people don't know this side as much. So he was arrested and imprisoned primarily due to his involvement with the anti-apartheid movement I like mixed accents there anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, his he joined the ANC and as that gained momentum, it started to organize strikes and protests and civil disobedience to challenge the oppressive regime. And in the early 1960s, Mandela helped to establish Umkhonto we Sizwe, or known as MK, which was an armed wing of the ANC, which sought to combat apartheid through sabotage and targeted acts of resistance. Mandela believed that peaceful protests alone at the time were not enough to bring about change and that the struggle for freedom required armed resistance as well. So that's, he was involved in not only that wing, that armed wing, but also creating it. So he's really really high up.

Tayla: 13:01

And that the government cracked down on the ANC and saw him as a threat to their authority and he was arrested and charged with, as I said, incitement to strike and leaving the country without a passport. However, during his subsequent trial, known as the Rivonia trial, he was accused of sabotage and conspiracy to overthrow the government, and not only sentenced to life in prison, but also on Robin Island, just like a deserted island off Cape Town. That's really horrible. So let me talk a bit about that because of a lot of things where I studied human rights in school and the ANC and specifically this armed wing, is an interesting thing to talk about because you could and a lot of people do, classify those acts as acts of terror terrorism. It's a very complex and debated topic. Is that something you heard?

Sam: 13:59

Yeah, so okay, so I have opinions about this. So the ANC was deemed a terrorist organization by the United States, and the FBI as well, in that same sort of timeframe.

Tayla: 14:13

I didn't know that. I knew it was deemed a terrorist group by South Africa, which, of course, would deem it so it was literally on that list until 2000 and something. Are you sure? Wow, okay.

Sam: 14:26

But I don't think it was on that, because it was still considered. I just think it takes that long to get off a terrorist list.

Tayla: 14:30

No, I'm just surprised it was on there at all, because the US is support for that.

Sam: 14:36

So they didn't support the terrorist actions of it. They kind of like with the complexity of this. They denounced the apartheid regime. They didn't support the terrorist acts of the ANC. In fact they were very much against it because the ANC had partnered with the Soviet Union, which the United. States was very much not happy with at that same timeframe because you have to understand this is also a similar timeframe to the Cold War. So no, they were.

Sam: 15:10

Okay, that's making more sense, yeah, and here's something that's also interesting is that after Nelson Mandela came out of prison, he has said that he was a fundamentally weak person and that there were things about how he thought we're wrong and how, moving forward, he was a proponent for, like you said, peace. So the way he moved forward was peace and I do think prison changed him, like absolutely changed him.

Tayla: 15:41

But I'm just it did. It's 27 years on a deserted island, I mean. So I went to his house in Soweto that's now like a historical building and there's a picture of him, kind of the last picture of him before he went into prison, and there's a picture, the first picture, of him leaving prison. And that's when it like, really hit me. He went in a young man and came out an old man from being in prison, a separated from his family, his kids, his wife, and treated like garbage I mean not like it's any different from out of prison, but definitely different. And for me I have to imagine that the way prison would have changed me for that long and that, being that horrible, would have been more in the anger, resentment, revenge.

Tayla: 16:36

I knowing myself, I feel like that's how I would have come out is just like pissed as hell and ready to kind of return the favor to the oppressors that put me through that you go ahead and go to prison for 27 years for being racist oppressors. You know, that's how I would have been. So it is so impressive to me and that's why he's such an interesting person, because I feel like that's what a lot of people would have reacted to and do react to, and I don't even know that that reaction would be without warrant. But he didn't.

Sam: 17:06

No, yeah. So one of the interesting things to me is, I think, because of this fundamental change, I think he was a lot more approachable and seen as someone that could work with the current or then the then current government in South Africa, because there were an ally contingency growing in the national party, the NP, and when FW DeKlerk was voted in, that was then seen as a hey. This is basically signaling the end of apartheid, because the biggest proponents for apartheid was the, the Dutch party. I'm trying to remember it was like the DFW or something like that it was some sort of name like that.

Sam: 17:55

I'm sure I could grab my phone for it. But anyways, when the NP won and the clerk became president, talks began with ending a party at that point, so that in 1990.

Tayla: 18:07

90, probably, yeah, something like that. Yeah, no, I think it was Probably right, as he was released from prison in 1990, I think there was a conglomeration.

Sam: 18:17

Yeah, let me just look up the keep going, I'm gonna look up the year it came out.

Tayla: 18:21

So before we kind of transition into that period of Nassim and Dale's life, I do, I did some research on the MK and those supposed terrorist acts, right, yeah.

Tayla: 18:33

And so here is what they did and his involvement in it and the impact on people. So, when he was the co-founder of the armed wing, the MK, mandela did, as I said, endorse acts of sabotage against the government infrastructure as a means to challenge the apartheid regime. So they and this is so I studied this, I actually did like an actual study on just war theory and terrorism, and the nature of terrorism is that you do target civilians specifically to propel an ideal or a belief, and that didn't happen by the MK. They didn't target civilians, they targeted, they engaged in. So they didn't engage in acts of violence against innocent people intentionally. Their focus was on military targets to send a message to them. Now, that's not to say that civilians weren't harmed, but that wasn't the target or the point. And so let's see, let me find this. So it is important before I get into, like, what happened and the impact on citizens, it's important to note that Mandela and the ANC always did seek to avoid harm to innocent people, and he, yeah, regardless, though that's not to say that the armed wing was without consequences, and that's where, like, the acts were the in and of themselves actually still violent against infrastructure, trains, et cetera. So there were instances where fatalities did occur as a result of their acts. Again, that wasn't. Those people were not the target, but they were victims of this. And so one of the most notable incidents was the church street bombing in Pretoria on the 20th of May 1983. Mk operatives planted a car bomb near a South African Air Force headquarters but unfortunately what resulted was the deaths of 19 individuals and the injury of many, many more.

Tayla: 20:52

So this and I think this is where Mandela's regret came in is that the focus was on the message and on the infrastructure and kind of challenging the regime, and I do think that they, that the fatalities were treated as kind of like collateral damage in that.

Tayla: 21:20

So, yeah, I mean, whether it's terrorism is debatable because of just like, if you actually understand what is defined as terrorism, it's a lot more complicated than that. Terrorism is specifically targeting civilians to propel an ideal, and also, terrorism is when you're resorting to violence as not your last resort, and that's where my study on just war theory came in is like, in a lot of ways, the ANC, and Mandela included, worked on many different ways of trying to end the regime before resorting to this armed wing and to violence, and this is where I've always stood on this is that it's not okay. But I feel like I would have done the same thing if I had to constantly watch my family be terrorized, my people be terrorized. And I'm going trying to go through the legal, I'm trying to put in political pressure, I'm trying to get international you know pressure involved as well, and nothing's happening. I wouldn't just sit and wait.

Sam: 22:25

I feel like I can understand, to be like you know well, this is war, then I guess yeah, for me it's complicated because it was less war and more of a you know, an oppression, so I can understand the want for violence.

Tayla: 22:43

Or at least the necessity for it. Yeah, in their view.

Sam: 22:47

In their view. You know there was still. So here's one of the things, one of the outcomes or one of the processes that happened at the end of the apartheid regime was that there was the truth and reconciliation process. So basically what that was is I think it was a total or something like close to 10,000 people. You apply for this, you go to basically a court, you know.

Tayla: 23:13

So kind of give us some more context for this too. Just to help people be oriented on timelines.

Sam: 23:18

Yeah, so this happened after, you know, after 1990.

Tayla: 23:23

After he was president, after he was president.

Sam: 23:26

So after 1994, and man, basically you are providing amnesty for if you come out and you basically confess all the things that you did and this is both sides if you were a cop during the apartheid era and you beat someone or you-.

Tayla: 23:46

Killed people, raped people.

Sam: 23:47

Whatever it was, and then for both sides, both sides got to basically come clean so we could get a true reconciliation of what happened. And you got amnesty. You basically just said, hey, come and tell us And-.

Tayla: 23:59

So we can have a record, we can-.

Sam: 24:02

And so we're gonna actually find out what happened on both sides. And so I think, yeah, it was close to 10,000 people applied for that, went through the process and it was recorded. It was I think it was almost live video tape too, so if you turned on like a channel somewhere, it was showing the whole thing. Yeah, and obviously people that didn't participate Nelson Mandela didn't. The Incauta Freedom Party, which was another black political organization that was not happy with the ANC, said we didn't kill anyone and we didn't order the killing of anyone either.

Sam: 24:35

There were the Zulus, a different tribe in Durban area, Nattel area, and yeah, I believe Mandela didn't participate because he had already gone through trial for it and gone to prison for 27 years yeah exactly, and the reason I'm bringing this up is that I do think that on both sides what they were doing was wrong. So I do believe the violence that was committed by the ANC or the Order of ANCs was wrong, and I do believe that the violence that was done to keep the oppression there was wrong, and that's separate from the fact that there was the oppressive violence, the oppressive laws right, so they have the oppressive laws, but then you also have oppressive violence and then you also have responsive violence.

Sam: 25:21

I think the violence of both sides needed to be have a confession and say, yes, we did these things and yes, we know they're wrong and let's move forward so we're not continuing the violence. Because, again, the violence part is also separately wrong.

Tayla: 25:36

Yeah, yeah, and I just have. Maybe this is a hot take, maybe it's controversial, but like I don't consider, I don't consider those acts by the ANC wrong.

Sam: 25:51

Yeah, no, but I fundamentally, disagree with again terror bombings are wrong, Just like I think going over from Hamas to go and shoot rockets over to Israel is wrong. Yeah, but I don't. They're not the same thing.

Tayla: 26:09

There was a.

Sam: 26:09

There's incidences like setting off bombs at a bar in Dover. That is fundamentally wrong and it doesn't. It's pure terrorism that act, pure terrorism. It's not under-trained, it's not. This is going to send a message to the government. It's literally retaliatorial violence.

Tayla: 26:34

Okay.

Sam: 26:36

I mean, the innocent civilians were murdered for that.

Tayla: 26:41

No, and, like I said, it's not like I don't think that's right, but I guess I put the burden of that on the original oppressors. I guess I'm like you have created the system and made people desperate and you created the violence. You know what I mean. So it's yeah, that's kind of where I come from is like if you hadn't been racist, dehumanizing and terrible to pretty much the majority of people in the country, the violence wouldn't have happened in the first place, and you know you're given the space to feel that way.

Sam: 27:20

But it's the same like if I was to create an equality for something that's recent. It'd be the same for me saying it's OK that those Hamas militants came over to Israel and murdered those people at that music festival and then, you know, kill people in their homes.

Tayla: 27:35

Yeah, and again, the ANC didn't do that. They didn't go into people's homes and murder people.

Sam: 27:40

No, but they set off like a bomb, like multiple bombs.

Tayla: 27:42

I know, I'm just saying they're not the same and the the level of terror and the nature of the terror that they were perpetuating is not the same.

Sam: 27:51

But you have to understand like still, they set off bombs where civilians were and civilians were killed.

Tayla: 27:58

Yeah, I get that. I get that. I'm just saying that's not the same thing as going through house to house and murdering people.

Sam: 28:05

Sure, but I mean the outcome is still the same. It's just a method, ok.

Tayla: 28:10

Yeah, so Demonstrated by our like little back and forth here is just like how complicated it is, because Ultimately, what happened and what the issue was was that there was dehumanization in general. People just did not view people as people, and that's where it went wrong. And I think the antidote to that and what Mandela really brought to the country was empathy and truly trying to see people as people, and maybe that's what changed for him, maybe some sort of and I actually in his book he does talk about that change that happens but he realized that his values for like equality and justice, like had to apply across the board. It couldn't just apply to your team.

Tayla: 29:01

Otherwise it's not really quality, it's not real justice, and that's what makes him so special is like the.

Tayla: 29:09

I don't know what sort of meditative whatever you go through to kind of get to that true nirvana of thought while going through such horrible crap like not only before prison but during prison. And it really is amazing and he brought that he was truly passionate about everyone finding a space to be a human to the point where, as you said, he did and he did infuriate some people, some black people, that wanted revenge, that wanted retaliation. I understand that and I also think that would be wrong, but the only reason there wasn't mass genocide at this transfer of power was, I think, truly him.

Sam: 29:55

Yeah, that's why. So Nelson Mandela and FW DeKler k shared the Nobel Peace Prize that year for that. I do think. Even when, like so you talk to South Africans that have left, they have mostly poor opinions on South Africa now, like look at how it's struggling, look at the leadership it's corrupt, look at the you know all these bad things about South Africa, but, regardless, almost every single one of those people still go, but Nelson Mandela, always, you know positive about Nelson Mandela and I really do think that, like you said, like it really could have turned very quickly into a civil war in South Africa if it weren't for Nelson Mandela pushing for peace from that side. And I think, and so, and I do believe, like he was in prison for probably longer than he should have been.

Tayla: 30:58

Right, absolutely.

Sam: 30:59

And but I do think he paid every like if you, you know, if you're on the side of well, he was a terrorist or whatever. He paid his time regardless of.

Tayla: 31:09

Yeah, he did his penance yeah.

Sam: 31:11

And I do think I agree with his fundamental view after prison, where you can get to where you want to be or your ultimate goal, without violence.

Sam: 31:23

I truly believe that.

Sam: 31:24

I truly think that that was the reason why there was a change is because there wasn't this, there was this hope that would be no violence with the ending of apartheid, because of who and how Nelson Mandela conducted himself in prison and then after prison, I really do think that I don't think it would have happened If he hadn't fundamentally changed.

Sam: 31:50

I think there would have been a lot more resistance to hey, let's not give up this power, because look at the like as soon as we do look at the violence that they're going to bring upon us, right? So I really do think that because he fundamentally changed, he was able to see that if I take this road and this angle, I will ultimately get what my actual goal is. Even though I feel like there needs to be, I could feel like I need retribution for the decades of oppression that's me and my family have felt and experienced, and would roughly feel like, hey, I need some sort of retribution, but rather said I just want this to end and then for us to be able to move forward all on the same page. That's the messaging I got as a teenager, but you know, I'm sure everyone experienced that timeframe differently.

Tayla: 32:45

Yeah, it's really interesting to ask my parents about what that was like, and I am. I think there was a lot of cognitive dissonance between, like, the average citizens during the apartheid regime, especially just depending on where. Like I think most of the citizens didn't want that oppression and that is why it wasn't some sort of coup that ended the apartheid. It was literally put to a vote, a referendum. So obviously that was one of the first times that most of the population actually could vote, so that that would swing things for sure. But I remember my parents saying that like they voted to abolish and I don't know. I'm proud, I'm proud of everyone from all sides that work together to kind of make it happen, and it is one of the only examples of a peaceful transfer of power, of that dynamic in human history.

Sam: 33:57

And just to clarify, the referendum was only open to a vote to the whites of Africans, oh, the referendum was.

Tayla: 34:02

and then the electoral vote. For the votes the electoral vote for the president.

Sam: 34:06

Was that's true?

Tayla: 34:07

Yeah, so the the, that's right. Yeah, it was only the white population that were allowed to vote to overthrow the apartheid and they did Um, that shouldn't have been all that had a say in it, but they did and they came through and that's impressive, Like I am. Like I said, I'm proud that it came from like the bottom up to change things and resulted in this like really unique Result in human history, like having studied international political history. It just didn't happen, Like there was always some sort of violence or some sort of like forceful turnover on these things.

Sam: 34:55

Yeah.

Tayla: 34:55

Um, so it's unique and I think it's it's important to acknowledge. But wow, like there's a reason that he is kind of almost saying it does feel like a little inhuman, like how amazingly he was able to like be the perfect leader for what was needed at the time.

Sam: 35:19

Yeah, I've got a couple Nels Mandela quotes that I like.

Tayla: 35:29

Me too.

Sam: 35:29

Okay, so I'll write like I think two or three, so one is. It always seems impossible until it's done. I like that one.

Tayla: 35:42

Especially considering, like the background to his him saying that like really it probably did feel impossible to like achieve what we did.

Sam: 35:54

So, so cool. He said money won't create success, the freedom to make it will.

Tayla: 36:02

Hmm, hmm, that's a good one.

Sam: 36:04

And then the another one, for to be free is not merely to cost off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others. So that last one kind of reminds me of Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence, where he talks about the, the freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Tayla: 36:27

Yeah, that's my ultimate favorite quote by Nels Mandela. That used to all, but that's such a good one.

Sam: 36:34

I really. I think you actually told me about it, but you know my bad Sorry.

Tayla: 36:39

Um, but like, I love that idea and that goes to what we were talking about, right, I think probably what I was saying about, I don't know, fighting for, for yours and your own is it is short-sighted and it's probably by nature of like our age differences and like what we've learned and like being patient and stuff. But, um, he demonstrated that, yeah, like he didn't consider freedom just like freedom for his people, it's. Yeah, if you enhance freedom for everyone, that's actually what being free is. Yeah, I love that.

Sam: 37:12

Yeah, and I should just um try qualify some of my statements that, um, you know I grew up in a privileged family in a privileged area of the world at the time, and, um, I do know that people that I was friends with and classmates with were were not privileged and and had the same opportunities that I did when I was growing up, or their parents especially. Um, so I'm aware of it, um, but it doesn't mean that I have opinion about. You know that I support violence. I'm just, you know, trying to say that, separate from the, the oppressive and the other stuff, I don't believe in violence being the answer.

Tayla: 37:53

Yeah, um, one of my favorite quotes is something I feel like you'll really like. I don't know if you know this one. It says, as I have said, the first thing is to be honest with yourself. You can never have an impact on society if you have not changed yourself.

Sam: 38:09

Oh, that's literally me.

Tayla: 38:11

Oh yeah, um, but true, absolutely true, like and and again. I think what makes these quotes so good is that he really like puts his money where his mouth is, like he's not just saying these things, it's actually demonstrated in how he lived his life. That honesty with himself that happened in prison is what resulted in the change, Um, even if it's not like pretty to look at. So, um, let's see, this one is is a little more like specific to what he went through. It's a little longer, but I think it's a great like insight into his, his brain.

Tayla: 38:47

He says I had no epiphany, no singular revelation, no moment of truth, but a steady accumulation of a thousand slights, a thousand indignities and a thousand unremembered moments produced in me an anger or rebelliousness, a desire to fight the system that imprisoned my people. There was no particular day on which I said henceforth, I will devote myself to the liberation of my people. Instead, I found myself simply doing so and could not do otherwise. Wow, that speaks to like, and I believe that's from his book Long Walk to Freedom.

Tayla: 39:21

But I think that what a great representation of, yeah, how a lot of people fighting for justice and freedom like find themselves in the positions that they're in, and I think George Washington was one of those people. It kind of just like found himself as the general for the you know um, I think Sharon says so, like Sharon McMahon and her meeting, she told us that George Washington bought a book on how to be a general on his way to the front, the army front, and I was just like wow, like that's a clear evidence that he kind of just found himself in that position. Um, but it's just like a cool way to visualize, like I really like the phrase a thousand unremembered moments, because I kind of have not in any skill like this, but when something has bothered me or gotten to the point where I have to change something, it's usually unremembered moments that my body remembers and holds on to.

Sam: 40:20

Interesting.

Tayla: 40:20

Yeah, any other quotes that you like?

Sam: 40:23

No, so I'm sure they are, but have you heard of the Mandela effect?

Tayla: 40:31

I have. Is that where you like remember things wrong?

Sam: 40:34

Yeah, it's like a false memory.

Tayla: 40:36

Why is it called that? So I've never thought about that, so I okay.

Sam: 40:40

So it might be remembering this wrong, but I think it had to do with, like, a bunch of people thought that Nelson Mandela had died in prison or something. And, um, they, they all collectively had the same like memory that he had died in prison and, like, I guess this lady like documented it or something like that, so it was called the Mandela effect and now it's used for, like you know, now there's always these Mandela effect quizzes or whatever, and you're like oh, like branding yeah.

Sam: 41:08

And the next quick is actually spelt this way and the you know this. You know all sorts of weird funny things.

Tayla: 41:14

Yeah, that's true. What's have you fallen for any? Uh, can't think of the next quick one. Probably the next quick one.

Sam: 41:22

No, but I'm sure every time I do those quizzes I usually get like half of them wrong anyway.

Tayla: 41:25

So I'm sure your brains, not yeah.

Sam: 41:29

It's all jumbled collective, false memory.

Tayla: 41:31

Basically, yeah, okay, I'm going to end with oh no, go, go, go ahead.

Sam: 41:38

What I haven't remembered. One, okay, okay, that um. There was a movie called um Shazam and um Shaquille O'Neal played a genie in a movie, or something like that.

Tayla: 41:54

Okay.

Sam: 41:55

Yeah, that never happened. But apparently everyone from my generation, like the millennials, we all were like no, I remember that movie, I've seen that movie and, like the movie, never existed.

Tayla: 42:08

What a weird thing.

Sam: 42:09

Yeah.

Tayla: 42:10

That's very weird. I am not from that generation, obviously, because I didn't think that, but I would have believed you if you'd said yeah.

Sam: 42:18

And I'm probably remembering that wrong, but it's something like that. It's pretty hilarious.

Tayla: 42:22

Just buy into the Mandela effect.

Sam: 42:23

Exactly.

Tayla: 42:24

Yeah, okay, um, one more quote that I love. It's from his book as well. That is a great representation of of Mandela, and it says I learned that to humiliate another person is to make him suffer an unnecessarily cruel fate. Even as a boy, I defeated my opponents without dishonoring them.

Sam: 42:47

Love it.

Tayla: 42:48

Which is so it it for him. That's what he did, I think.

Sam: 42:55

Through rugby.

Tayla: 42:56

Just kidding as one as one, as one method, yeah, of doing that. So do you have like a favorite memory associated with Mandela at all?

Sam: 43:07

Oh, it has to be the rugby World Cup.

Tayla: 43:09

Yeah, I guess you would remember that.

Sam: 43:11

Yeah, that really is so you watch like South Africa wins. I was watching it right on TV and 95. So it's TV's burning garbage, whatever, but anyways, south Africa wins, right, and immediately everyone loses their mind. And then this is like a cool moment the whole South African rugby team like kneels down and has a prayer, like immediately, like immediately, like that.

Sam: 43:35

And then they get up, I know, and then they all you know, start celebrating, going around the thing, and you know, then Mandela comes out for the trophy. So I, like the actor, coordinated, forori scoringied the mêmegrünt. We're moving past the. We moved perhaps fromは인 Kelinus Just know that簽 because he's. That's the messaging that at least you know.

Tayla: 44:16

That moment.

Sam: 44:17

Yeah, that moment, so you know it was great.

Tayla: 44:21

That's a cool memory and like do you remember your family or anyone around you's reaction? I don't know.

Sam: 44:27

But I do remember like, even like all the commercials and all like the stuff was all about like unity after that like you know, like roll together. At least that was the brand-new avatars. So as a kid, that's massive. I'm sure, like people that are already adults, you know you're seeing the change, but when you're a kid or a teenager, that just is your new normal. And so for us, that was the new normal. We're all. We're all the same. We're all, exactly the same.

Sam: 44:54

And so when I'm, you know, 11, so I'm like standard three, so like grade five, great Grade five, grade six, like all of a sudden, like not all of a sudden, but it was just like like a solidifying moment that just reminded you like hey, we're all the same and so whatever, like things that maybe were happening before didn't feel exactly the same afterwards, yeah.

Tayla: 45:20

It was like a catalyst for some behavioral cultural changes. Yeah, I love that.

Sam: 45:24

Because I remember playing rugby like years after that, like in high school or crickets, and it just felt like you know, there wasn't the same sort of at least you know, man it's so hard to try to remember those times, but basically it didn't feel, as you know, separated in groups, like you know, like at lunch where everyone would sit or whatever, it just kind of felt a lot more unifying. But you know again, we're kids and so for kids it's just, it's not the same.

Tayla: 45:53

So yeah, yeah, that's a cool memory. I have a lot of memories from like his life, but I remember I was a missionary at the time and not able to like keep updated with news and stuff, but I remember being on my mission and having like a member of the congregation text me and say hey, I just thought you want to know that Nelson Mandela passed away, and that was 2013, December 5th 2013. And I remember feeling like a really unexpected, like grief, because I mean it's not like we're really close or anything, but like I remember that hitting me of like wow, kind of like that that morning that like a real legend and like a special, special person had passed and he was old, like really old Almost. Yeah, he was like 95 or something like that.

Sam: 46:49

Yeah.

Tayla: 46:51

But that's like a special moment that I had, like I took the time I remember that evening to like really think about him and be grateful for him and how it impacted my life, but also like the whole world impacted by this guy. And if you haven't read his book, it is long but it's fascinating. I really recommend it yeah.

Tayla: 47:09

And if you also get the chance, I mean pretty much every South African down that goes back to South Africa does go do visits of you know his home and so and that's it's like spiritual I've been to Robin Island and when I went they still had people imprisoned with him there touring and giving their I mean they're all old but they would be there every day, take the ferry over and kind of talk about the experience Like it really was reverent.

Sam: 47:36

I don't know, but the apartheid museum in Johannesburg is amazing, like same thing, and then I do think there's also a tour in Soweto as well.

Tayla: 47:47

Yes, and that's where I went to see his house. Wow, Really amazing. So you know, we pay tribute to an amazing, amazing, complicated but like, self aware and transformative person, individually and collectively. And if you don't know that much about him, hopefully this one helped to introduce you to like a really amazing figure. And we do recommend that you go watch Invictus, like if you need a toe dip in like go go find out more about him. Thanks for listening to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam: 48:24

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