Substance Use

Are you ready to challenge your perspective on substances? We’re not just talking about the hard stuff, but everyday substances like caffeine that we consume without a second thought. We share some humorous anecdotes, interesting facts, and even delve into the complex relationship many of us have with substances. From a hilarious dinosaur toy infection tale to the balance between beneficial and harmful use, we're taking an all-encompassing look at how substances impact us. 

We delve into the prevalent use of caffeine in workplaces and the struggle of breaking away from these deeply ingrained habits. We also discuss the importance of setting boundaries and understanding the implications of substance use. From mind-altering medications to the cultural influences surrounding drug use, we explore the broad spectrum of substance use, hoping to shed light on the lesser-known aspects of this complex issue. 

We're not just about discussing the problems, we're also here to provide solutions. We discuss guidelines for responsible substance use, strategies to resist substances when aware of the potential risks, and the significance of the company you're in. We explore the dangers of substance misuse, the importance of hydration, and the complex legal status of substances like marijuana globally. This episode is filled with insightful dialogue and engaging discussions, so bring an open mind and buckle up for a rollercoaster of enlightenment!

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What do you know about the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo, Sam?

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:32

So when they told you you needed to get labs, what did you tell them?

Sam: 0:38

Um, I was like two thumbs up, just a heads up, though I frequently pause out when I have blood drawn and they're like don't worry, we have a chair for that.

Tayla: 0:48

We have a chair for it. Yeah, so it's a special chair, it's a weird thing.

Sam: 0:52

So, like you know, I'll get shot, so I'll go to the hospital, get IVs and it's not a problem. But for some reason, when I have my blood drawn, my body reacts weird and like I've passed out multiple times having my blood drawn. That's interesting.

Tayla: 1:07

I wonder if it's just like whoa blood is not supposed to go out that way. I don't know. Okay, so what was the special chair?

Sam: 1:17

Oh, it's just like a large chair that folds down into like whatever lying position that you kind of want, like a hospital version of a recliner.

Tayla: 1:26

Okay, and it seemed to help. Yeah, it didn't pass out.

Sam: 1:29

It didn't pass out. Everything was just perfectly fine. But this is what they did, though. They kept me full of like some sugary candies and some drink right before. Yeah, they're like look, this will help and just free candy.

Tayla: 1:41

Now I know how to get it. Yeah, that's funny. And how many days did it take you to actually go see a doctor?

Sam: 1:49

About a week.

Tayla: 1:50

Uh-huh, and every day.

Sam: 1:52

Every day.

Tayla: 1:53

I would be like you should probably see a doctor tomorrow and you'd be like, yeah, I probably should. And then I'd say, hey, did you think you should see a doctor? And you'd be like, maybe tomorrow.

Sam: 2:04

Well, they did exactly what I thought would happen, which is they're not going to be able to do anything which they didn't but they are going to do labs to see if there's something else going on.

Tayla: 2:15

Yeah.

Sam: 2:16

They're like I don't, we don't know what's wrong with you, but here's some pain medication. That's literally what it was and I'm just like uh-huh, yep.

Tayla: 2:23

Well, now we know for sure you could have had some sort of parasite or something.

Sam: 2:27

Maybe yeah, who knows who?

Tayla: 2:29

knows. Well, I'm going to the doctor tomorrow. I don't think I've told you this yet, but I'm going to the doctor tomorrow because I don't know why Was it like a week ago? Has it been that long?

Sam: 2:40

You got a dinosaur infection. I did.

Tayla: 2:44

I think it was Wednesday last week. I was walking to put something away and all of a sudden I heard my the skin on the bottom of my foot pop and felt immense pain and looked down and realized Max has this little car that's also a triceratops as well that I stood upon and it went and punctured my foot. And what's the what? What did we? I had you clean it so nicely.

Tayla: 3:14

You had like your whole soap bucket and we cleaned it so well and it was fine, but it just started itching and getting red and I think it's infected.

Sam: 3:23

Yeah Well, I mean, it's mildly infected, but you still don't want it. You don't want to mess around with that.

Tayla: 3:28

Yeah, especially, and again, I've tried so hard to keep it clean, but I guess it's the bottom of my foot.

Sam: 3:33

You want to get some antibiotics on that, yeah.

Tayla: 3:36

So we'll see what the doctor says and I'm sure I'll impress him greatly with my story of the triceratops car.

Sam: 3:42

I threw away the car.

Tayla: 3:43

Did you Yep, did you actually yeah, why?

Sam: 3:46

Because you're going to do it again.

Tayla: 3:49

Hopefully not shame the poor car. I should have put it in like a memory box or something for Max. Anyway, speaking of which, I guess straight into our topic for the week, which is substance use. Okay, so we are. What is substance use? I guess a good place to start.

Tayla: 4:15

So substance use is the use of any substance that can alter your mood, behavior, energy or perception. This includes drugs, alcohol and tobacco. Substance can be both healthy and unhealthy. For example, using alcohol in moderation can be an activity, a social activity that people enjoy. However, using alcohol or other substances to cope with stress or negative emotions can lead to an unhealthy relationship with substances. Obviously, if you have an unhealthy relationship with substances, it can have a huge negative impact on your life, including physical and mental health, relationships, work. Signs of an unhealthy relationship include using substances more often or in larger amounts than you intended, craving substances, having difficulty controlling your use of substances and continuing to use substances even though they might be causing problems in your life.

Tayla: 5:08

So some interesting facts. Over 20 million Americans have substance use disorder, which is not necessarily the topic of the conversation today, but an interesting fact. Substance use disorders can be treated. By only 10% of people who need treatment, receive it. All in all, substance use is a huge part of society today. People use it, whether it's from using caffeine to wake up when you have a newborn, or self-miticating with mushrooms process some sort of past trauma. Either way, babe, what do you know about substance use?

Sam: 5:47

A little bit Just as a disclaimer. Right now I have a massive headache, so this is one of my symptoms I've had over the last week. So if I'm like, just you know.

Tayla: 6:02

Completely disinteresting or as usual, yeah, so Just kidding.

Sam: 6:08

Yeah, I just took 800 milligrams of ibuprofen and then tomorrow I've got some prescription payments. I'm going to try, we'll see how that goes.

Tayla: 6:19

Like narcotics. I guess we do.

Sam: 6:21

No, it is. So she gave me two different kinds, like one specifically for migraines and then the other one is a muscle relaxant. Because she's like maybe it's literally comes from. I've got neck damage or something. So she neck damage, yeah well that's a general statement, but who knows?

Tayla: 6:41

We're just guessing at this point.

Sam: 6:43

She has no idea what's wrong with me, but yeah waiting for labs.

Tayla: 6:46

Anyways, substances, yeah, you're on it right now Ibuprofen, ibuprofen, the heavy stuff.

Sam: 6:52

So just so you know like I typically don't like taking medication, you know this.

Tayla: 6:57

Why.

Sam: 6:59

I just it's probably hereditary, so my dad doesn't like taking medication and because he feels like things should be more natural and blah, blah, blah blah. And I'm kind of up the same way Right where it's like I don't feel like a pill is going to solve all your problems, and not that they don't. I'm just saying, generally speaking, I try avoid medication. However, I think there's time and place for all medication, for foods, for substances, etc. Yeah yeah. So I definitely do try avoid substances as much as I can, and then I've been, because. So when we talk about substances we're talking about alcohol and above kind of stuff, right?

Tayla: 7:46

So I think even like just anything, mood altering energy. So I think caffeine should be something we talk about as well, because that's a big. It's a big substance people use all the time, every day.

Sam: 7:57

Yeah, so I can't speak a lot on the caffeine thing because it reacts differently with me, so it doesn't really Doesn't do the thing, like, yeah, like I can like down an energy drink, like a red bull or whatever, and just go straight to bed and it's totally fine. So in it, and if I have your ADHD.

Sam: 8:16

Yeah, and so if I have a like an energy drink on a night out, it's not going to keep me going. Besides the sugar like that. The sugar is definitely so fast to say. If I do have a problem with substances substances it would be sugar, carbohydrates, things like that that I literally don't have as much control over. Like yeah, that's, I haven't created the same sort of rules and boundaries and other stuff with with like alcohol and weed and other harder drugs, medications and stuff.

Tayla: 8:46

Yeah Well, I work in a Fortune 500 tech company.

Sam: 8:51

Is everyone on Adderall no?

Tayla: 8:54

but they're on caffeine like hardcore. So this is like a common topic. Like just in a meeting. Someone will be like excuse me, I got to and they're drinking like. And they'll be like it's just my third one today, my third energy drink today. They'll like counted out. They like keep track of the milligrams of caffeine that they're ingesting either through coffee, energy drinks.

Tayla: 9:15

I even have a co-worker who just goes straight to caffeine pills because he says it releases better over time. This is a super common thing where I work, where people literally rely on caffeine to get through the workday.

Sam: 9:29

That's crazy to me.

Tayla: 9:30

It's like every single one, even my boss, who I would, I would. I mean he's like super active Mormon, like very not into substances, uses energy drinks. His are more like healthy, like V8 ones or whatever, but he will also, and then it's a constant topic, like it's a cycle where they'll go for it, and then you'll have a co-worker that's really, really grumpy for whatever reason and he's like oh, I was getting too much, I wasn't having the effect I wanted, I was having to cut back for a few months so that I can then start the cycle over again.

Sam: 10:02

Wow.

Tayla: 10:04

So very, very common. So caffeine for me is usually like Dr Pepper. That's a big sin of my caffeine really, or like Chai Tea or something. It's pretty mild, but yeah, it's all over Everyone.

Sam: 10:25

Everyone. I personally think that any sort of reliance on substances like that is just not healthy for you like, obviously physically, but then mentally as well.

Tayla: 10:37

Yeah.

Sam: 10:38

I just I really feel like cause you end up just being almost addicted to the substances because you can't function on, I would say, like a normal level without it. Like cause it becomes like a crutch almost.

Tayla: 10:49

You need it. Yeah, well, the thing, the interesting thing is, these people are completely aware that it's not healthy, but they need it. Yeah, I think most people know that, right, yeah, yeah.

Sam: 10:59

I think most people are aware of those things and they still do it, like I'm aware that it is unhealthy for me to eat that delicious, you know, chocolate, or chips, or sandwiches, whatever it is, and I still, I still do it, you know. Or McDonald's, I'm like, hmm, mcdonald's. But, it's absolutely one of the worst things you can put into your body, but I still do it, but you know that's my one thing.

Tayla: 11:25

Yeah, and everyone has it. In fact, I just had this funny memory I haven't thought about probably since it happened. So I had recently returned from my mission. I was going on a date with another return missionary from the church and I remember being so this is what happens, right when you grew up in a high demand religion like Mormonism, where you know everything down to like tea, coffee is like controlled, right that I remember on this accidental date that we ended up on where we accidentally drove to like Duchenne, utah, instead of back to Provo from Park City.

Tayla: 12:08

On the drive we just talked and talked and it was late and we were getting tired and we were just having to didn't have GPS back in at the time and I remember him saying that he ended up getting an energy drink addiction on his mission and I was like so scandalized by that. I was like oh my gosh, like how did you let that happen ever? But especially as like a missionary, when you're teaching people all these healthy habits and all that. But I just remember like it's such a thing, especially I would say like here in Utah, people that won't drink alcohol, they won't take drugs, they will go to the soda shops they were like all around every corner and they're like it's like really bougie, like what kind of soda they'll get, and there's like a whole culture around soda and I think a lot of it has to do with caffeine and energy.

Sam: 13:00

I mean, that's so in my opinion. I feel like Mormons get addicted to everything because Everything else. Because it's like you're not allowed to do it. You're not allowed to do it, not allowed to do it, and so it becomes like a guilt cycle. You know that they do the thing. It helps them get through the thing. They feel guilty, they feel like trash. Well, gotta go back to the substance or whatever it is that they're addicted to. Mormons get addicted to everything. I think pills Like that was like-.

Tayla: 13:27

That's true. That's a depressance. Yeah, Narcotics or opioids.

Sam: 13:34

Opioids.

Tayla: 13:35

Yes, there's like an epidemic here in.

Sam: 13:37

Utah. Okay, do you want to hear my rules for substances in life?

Tayla: 13:44

Yes, but I also want to hear like how? How did you come up with the rules? Cause you're a post-mormon, grew up high demand, religion super controlled and substances you didn't drink smoke nothing, never, not once.

Sam: 13:57

I was just-.

Tayla: 13:58

What about caffeine? Was that a thing for you? No like-, Not even that.

Sam: 14:01

I mean, like I said again, caffeine never did anything for me so it was like you know, if I wanted a Coca-Cola, I would have one, but it wasn't. Like you know.

Tayla: 14:10

Okay, so then you go into this post-mormon world. You're doing it partially-.

Sam: 14:15

I wasn't doing it at all. No, no, no.

Tayla: 14:17

But I mean, like, as you're transitioning, you're doing a lot of that in like Miami, in the deep throws of drugs and alcohol.

Sam: 14:26

I would say it started in Hawaii. Probably You're substance use or you're-. No, so substance use probably started Texas, but yeah, it was pretty much mainly like so it like I'd had a couple of drinks of alcohol before moving to Miami, but that was about it. Okay so, and that's like years after-.

Tayla: 14:49

Yeah, how old are you Like? This is your first time experimenting with what a lot of people do when they're like teenagers or-. Like 26, 27, yeah, well, your brain is fully developed.

Sam: 15:00

That's good, yes, so that was the thing is I had done so much research going into this because I was like I have no moral objection to any of this, you know, in terms of like in eternal moral objection.

Tayla: 15:14

but Right, god doesn't want you to that kind of thing.

Sam: 15:17

But yeah, but yes, in terms of, like, you know, my personal morals, it was like, well, I need to figure out, and so I did a ton of research into it and then, thankfully, when I went to Miami, I got to see, like the abuse of it very quickly in other people and people that, even though they don't maybe abuse it in the short term, but seeing people that have been on substances for a very long time even alcohol, and, you know, cigarettes or coffee, whatever it is and you're just like, oh, I don't want that lifestyle when I'm, you know, my 40s and 50s, that looks pretty bad.

Sam: 15:51

So I got to make, I'd say, educated decisions based on how I want my relationship with substances to be. So, you know, with alcohol, it's like I don't see anything wrong with going out and having some drinks, you know, to socialize or to, you know, if you're single, you're going to a party or drinking enough to where you're relaxed and having a good time. I do think it's done, though, to drink a lot until you're feeling sick or you're, you know, starting to lose your, you know.

Tayla: 16:26

Judgment.

Sam: 16:26

Judgment your ability to drive. So you know you start, you know you start being dangerous to other people and dangerous to yourself. That's when I think it's too much. And so I always went into these situations with these rules set up in mind, like, okay, so you get to this point after two drinks or three drinks, or you know, based on you know the alcohol content, this is just a one shot thing, or whatever it is. So, on top of that, the frequency of it and oh, and also depending on what kind of mood I was in, I was like yeah.

Tayla: 16:56

Right, because you were going through.

Sam: 16:58

you went through a divorce at some point, at some point yeah, at some point during this I went through a divorce and then I was like you know, hey, I'm super sad. Right now I cannot drink alcohol at all, because I just know that it either becomes a habit and it's like used to get through it, oh, I'm just gonna make you know I'm gonna feel even more sad, or I'm gonna, you know, do something dumb. So I was just like you gotta process these feelings. You've got to go through it.

Tayla: 17:24

You have to be sad.

Sam: 17:25

You have to be sad, so yeah, so that's kind of been my rules and it kind of goes all the way up from you know things, that's-.

Tayla: 17:32

Okay, so list out the rules. It was a little more like give me one of the rules Substance use. So so substance Stams, substance use rules. Say that 20 times Number one be over 25.

Sam: 17:44

Make sure that your brain is in a good spot. Number two be in a good frame of mind, because most substances are you know-.

Tayla: 17:52

Don't self-medicate with it.

Sam: 17:53

Yeah, don't self-medicate with it and have intention behind. You know, like you have to understand what the substance does. So alcohol is going to be good to certain things and weed will do certain things. So you know, know exactly what you're getting yourself into and going with that mindset. Then frequency, you know infrequent, so your liver can have a chance to stay healthy. And then what was the other ones? I mentioned this, sorry, my head's foggy.

Tayla: 18:27

No, it's the substance. I get it I understand. I'm just a proven lack of sleep.

Sam: 18:32

Yeah, oh, and then in terms of like, how much and what type of substances to use. So I got to see people on acid, on cocaine, on all sorts of things, and go no, no, no, no, no, Like absolutely. There's a certain limits of like. Hey, some drugs, yeah, you can do it in moderation, you can do it infrequently, but other drugs, there's just no ways that it's safe.

Tayla: 18:56

It's rather not yeah like.

Sam: 18:58

I mean, if you've seen someone on meth, it's just bizarre and sad, and see someone on cocaine, it's intense and scary. You see someone on acid and it's very out of control. So yeah, there's definitely things that you just do not do, in my opinion.

Tayla: 19:16

I don't I think you may have mentioned this and I was a little bit lost too but who you do this around?

Sam: 19:23

Yeah. So, like I was saying, yeah, also, make sure what substances you're using, make sure it's appropriate for the people you'll be around. So that could be as simple as hey. I'm going to be driving, so don't drink, you know.

Tayla: 19:37

Right? Well, don't be on drugs.

Sam: 19:38

Don't be on drugs and if you're in an environment where you need to make good decisions, you're in a relationship you know, don't.

Tayla: 19:47

Or you don't trust, like you don't know the people that you're with Exactly.

Sam: 19:51

So, yeah, you gotta be careful with those things. But yeah, I've had really good experiences with substance use with very strict rules. But because I've had those boundaries and those rules, I've probably kept myself out of a lot of trouble.

Tayla: 20:09

Have you ever broken your rules? I have, because I don't think I've ever asked this actually.

Sam: 20:14

Yeah, with you once. So we were on a vacation and I was having you pour me the drinks.

Tayla: 20:24

And I had never drank, so I didn't know what was I supposed to. Okay, so, bottle of rum, bottle of rum.

Sam: 20:31

Yeah, so we were on a vacation and I cooked a nice dinner and we were just chatting and then I was like, oh, you know what, I'm just gonna have a glass, you know a little mixed rum, drink, whatever. And that was supposed to be the thing. But what happened was I had-.

Tayla: 20:46

It was so little liquid I didn't know. I was like, wow, you just barely had anything to drink.

Sam: 20:51

And also I had not like set up any sort of like boundaries or rules. You know, being in a relationship with you in the sink, so, like you said, you've never poured the drinks, you know. So I was just like-.

Tayla: 20:59

Yeah, I don't know what I'm drinking.

Sam: 21:00

We were just chatting, and then you're just pouring another drink, and you're chatting and you're pouring me another drink and then, before we know it, I'm like, oh, I am. Sloshed I am. I am not good at how I was like, oh no, it's a knockout, oh, and you gotta go to bed. Yeah, and I woke up with a hangover.

Tayla: 21:16

And you had, so you were drunk, and you had never been drunk before.

Sam: 21:20

Not that drunk, no, no.

Tayla: 21:22

And I didn't realize until like too late. Yeah, it was. I will say it was like a fun experience for me because I could have the most interesting conversations with you. But it's a good thing you knew me and you could trust me. And you actually did keep asking me. You're like are you taking advantage of me? You asked that like 20 million times.

Sam: 21:43

And I was like I'm not.

Tayla: 21:44

I promise, but fortunately I was someone who wouldn't right. But, I feel like your brain was even trying to protect yourself in that state by being like someone could just say anything or do anything scary. So I'll say one time my brother got married in August and we had some friends in town from South Africa and just from out of town that wanted to go to DOS Energy, which is a music festival up in Salt Lake. It was late already. I was like the youngest there, I think it was only like 21 or 22.

Tayla: 22:17

And I was like oh my gosh it's 10 PM, we're going to go out now but wanted to drive and we got up there and that was kind of one of my first exposures to people like on drugs at in like a social party session, yeah.

Tayla: 22:31

And that was like really shocking and pretty weird for me. We're like I remember like people were walking around with dummies or bankies or pacifiers or whatever you want to call them in their mouths, which was so weird and disturbing to me. And I asked you like, why, why are they wearing those? Why are they sucking on baby dummies? And you're like, oh, cause, so they don't grind their teeth, or something. I was like, oh my gosh, what are these people on?

Tayla: 23:00

And I saw someone just sitting on the ground. Someone had some flashy gloves on. They're just like doing stuff right in front of their face. And I was like, oh, this person is not even there, like they're gone, they're not even. It was pretty freaky to me as someone who had never really been exposed to someone, that under the influence right, I had been around people who had drank or been around people on weed, but this was like a different ball game and it was pretty shocking to me at the time. But I do think that goes to show that, like, lack of education can really skew your perception of what's going on, and I do think that's half of the problem and why kids shouldn't really get involved with this stuff is because lack of education makes you either less afraid or more afraid of something than is appropriate, and then also just decision making process. It's not good.

Sam: 23:52

Side comment about that the wedding. For some reason your brother thinks I was drinking that night and I was like I 100% wasn't drinking.

Tayla: 23:59

I think maybe yeah, he's like he got drunk at my wedding. I'm like wait, no way.

Sam: 24:03

Maybe got like a memory crossed with someone else, cause I know I think James and Michelle were, so the DJ was and Michelle was.

Tayla: 24:11

Our cousin. Yeah, they were drinking.

Sam: 24:13

Yeah, well, like a little bit.

Tayla: 24:15

Yeah, they weren't like drunk.

Sam: 24:16

No, but then at the DOS they did.

Tayla: 24:19

Yeah, they kept drinking. But yeah, like he's told that story and I've been like Sam. We weren't even engaged. Like you would never drink at a family wedding where my very conservative Mormon family was there.

Sam: 24:32

Can you imagine I just kind of left it cause I mean, what's the harm? Like oh well, but.

Tayla: 24:37

Just funny what people will remember. But yeah, so that was my first kind of major exposure to people in that state and you kind of explain the dynamics of people in like cause. I was like how are these people? Okay, like they could very easily be abused, taken advantage of, stolen. How is this working?

Sam: 24:59

Absolutely can. So that's why so like typically in that culture, you usually have one person in the group, if not more, that's looking out for the group and that. So that's what you're supposed to do. Obviously, some people are dumb and they don't do that, and then you just run the risk of someone taking advantage of you.

Tayla: 25:17

But yeah, but you have like a sober guy. Yeah, you have a sober person that usually comes with supplies. How did you describe it Like? Describe to the tea, like your stereotypical this guy. So, it's usually a big guy.

Sam: 25:31

that's like carrying a backpack, yeah so the guy's always got a backpack. He's a very protective kind of personality. He's like very it's always like a fatherly kind of brotherly kind of dude and he's just there to try to take care of everyone. And you know once, everyone's to have a good time, but yeah.

Tayla: 25:47

Supplies like water or bandages.

Sam: 25:50

It wouldn't surprise me if he's also the drug dealer. But that's funny. Oh yeah, but yeah, so again. So once you get to that level of substances it starts becoming more dangerous, like immediately, it's not like, oh, let me just do a little bit. It's like you know you'll do half a pill, quarter of a pill, whatever You're still going to become, like you said. You just kind of look at them like they're not here with me.

Tayla: 26:16

Yeah, especially if they're not like controlled substances. You don't really know for sure what it is that you're ingesting.

Sam: 26:21

That's also. Another danger is people have died, you know, because it's been laced with something else, whether intentionally or just you know, to save you know, cost on trying to put your own, you know formula together.

Tayla: 26:34

Yeah, I mean let's. I mean we could talk about this dynamic for women just trying to be out and about in social situations, like the amount of products and Marketing and things to literally protect women from being drugged so they can be taken advantage of, is crazy and the fact that that's. It's just a sad thing that Substances can so often be used to take advantage not just of women but of people in vulnerable situations and in normal social situations. But it is dangerous, and so the advice around taking substances is just like know what the hell it is that you're ingesting. If you choose to do it, be around someone who knows what they're doing and people that you trust, and don't do it around people you don't trust, regardless of what it is. I mean you could, I mean, who knows, you make me up, mix me up like a caffeine soda drink, like I just kidding.

Sam: 27:29

But yeah, no really.

Tayla: 27:31

But but truly I think there's just I think the different things that you, that people commonly use. So like weed is like a very popular one, right, recreationally, and I remember it was a very hot topic when I was in high school, like senior year I think we even debated on legalizing marijuana in my like government class or whatever, very scandalized at the guy that was for legalizing marijuana. I thought it was such a big deal. I knew quite a few people on it and I was like so concerned for them because I'm like they're going to get addicted. But we all grew up in well, at least I did in like the don't or just say no, right, that's what we were taught as kids is like just say no to drugs altogether and so.

Tayla: 28:24

But it's become more popular. Recreationally it's becoming legal. I mean it's complicated, right, the federal, federally it's illegal, but in some states it can be legal. In Utah it's legal for medical purposes. But that has led to a lot more research and exposure to people taking THC, whether they're smoking it, doing edibles, whatever the case may be. So tell me about your first experience with it.

Sam: 28:51

With weed.

Tayla: 28:52

Yeah, because did you have the same like fears or stereotypes?

Sam: 28:56

Oh yeah, actually I do remember the first time, hilarious, okay. So I think I mean I think I had taken like a couple I don't know what to even call them drags, you know, hanging out and you know, with other musicians. It was kind of chatting and it's pretty like culturally normally, at least at the time just kind of pass around, you know.

Tayla: 29:19

Seems like I'm sanitary.

Sam: 29:20

Probably was. But but yeah, that was it. And you know you get to see them high very quickly and it's just kind of like a, like a spacey, you know relaxed kind of high very quickly.

Tayla: 29:36

Were you afraid to do it the first time or had you already kind of dispelled yeah, dispelled Any misconceptions?

Sam: 29:42

But this here's a funny story, though the first time I did it's like like a, like a whole, and what are you blunt?

Tayla: 29:50

Yeah Well, I wouldn't call it a blunt.

Sam: 29:52

I don't know what it was called, but anyways a whole cigarette.

Tayla: 29:58

Oh, weed, it was a call.

Sam: 30:00

It was a special name for it.

Tayla: 30:01

Oh well, You've been out of the game too long.

Sam: 30:03

I don't smoke at all just because it's not comfy or lungs.

Tayla: 30:07

Anyways, it's bad, yeah, regardless.

Sam: 30:09

Yeah.

Tayla: 30:12

Smoking anything is just bad for your lungs.

Sam: 30:13

Okay. So I was at home, I okay so in Miami, and I spoke to my manager music manager, you know making music at the time and I was like, hey, I need some weed. And he's like, yeah, I got a guy and he gives me the address and I rock up. It's like some like giant house in Miami and through the side entrance and it's like this, like like like an extra house, like a guest house on the property and it's just literally like this big living room kind of area and it's just full of weed. So his weed guy is like a weed guy.

Tayla: 30:56

So and is it legal in Florida at the time?

Sam: 30:59

I don't think it was legal at the time.

Tayla: 31:01

Oh my gosh yeah.

Sam: 31:03

I don't think so, but it was illegal in a number of states so. But I don't think it was legal in Miami at the time and anyways. So he's like, how much do you want? And I was like I don't know, and so I'm trying to remember how much it ordered. It was something ridiculous.

Tayla: 31:19

You ordered.

Sam: 31:20

Yeah, I bought. So I bought like a few hundred bucks worth of product. And but I pretty much ordered enough to like become a drug dealer and I didn't realize this.

Tayla: 31:32

You didn't know cause you just same with me in the alcohol pouring like you. Just don't know.

Sam: 31:37

Yeah, he gave me like this much. I'm sure you need to do it with hand. It's like a.

Tayla: 31:40

It's like three bricks worth of.

Sam: 31:44

It lasted me the full. I think it was five years, five, six years, whatever. Yeah, that's how long it lasted. So it was probably like not as potent anymore after like your five or six. But that's how much weed it was, and anyway, so I have it and he put it in like multiple layers of stuff and says like hey, this should be good. You know, like cause it's it smells like it's so much product it's like you know, it smells a lot. So like weed, like good weed.

Tayla: 32:13

Okay.

Sam: 32:14

Anyways, so I'm, I was, I had my Lotus Elise at the time, which is just a little tiny little thing.

Tayla: 32:22

Sports car yeah.

Sam: 32:23

But anyways, my whole car smelled of weed while driving home. So I'm like if I get pulled over I'm going to go to jail, anyways, because it's so much, there's so much, yeah, so it's luckily I get. I get home and you know, I ow sorry, I think it has rolled a blunt. Rolled a blunt so, cause I bought papers and everything and watched some YouTube videos and how to do it. Anyways, I was married at the time and what happened was Not to me.

Sam: 32:53

Not to you. I was married to someone else and so she, she tried some anyways, but I smoked the whole thing. But what happened was I smoked it too quickly and I didn't get enough oxygen. So I went through the whole thing fairly quickly, within like two minutes, and Is this stuff people would know if they're. Probably. Anyways, I literally passed out.

Tayla: 33:17

Oh my gosh, I've never heard this story.

Sam: 33:19

I literally passed out. I was literally like hey, like I literally just told her, like I can't breathe, and she and she was freaking out. And then he was out laying on the floor and then I passed out. Oh my God. Then I woke up to woke up to her like in a panic.

Tayla: 33:32

Trying to wake you up. Like what's going on.

Sam: 33:34

And then I was fine after that. But man, that was scary. For half a minute I was like, did I just die on weed? And then I was anxious for like hours because of that.

Tayla: 33:44

Yeah, no kidding, no kidding.

Sam: 33:47

But that was, that was my first time like for reals, for reals. Yeah, that was pretty dumb.

Tayla: 33:53

Yes, and again, if this I think if you're choosing to use substances, you should involve someone who knows what the hell they're doing. Yeah, that can actually guide you. Yeah.

Sam: 34:06

I think that's why when I'd, like you know, had had, you know, taken a you know a little puff from someone else, so it was never a big deal and it was like nice and chill because I was around of people that were pacing themselves and you know knew how much to smoke again. So when I was by myself, all of a sudden it was like just too much, way too much.

Tayla: 34:27

Yeah, sorry, just yawning like a parent of a one in a three year old. So for me, I was hit by a car in 2013 when I was missionary, ironically, and walked with a cane for like two years after. That really bad injury lasted for many, many years and because of that kind of wrecked my back from walking, so skew on piss and having the impact of being hit by a car and the back problems really started when I just first became pregnant with Max. It was like within a month. I just could barely move. I tweaked my back somehow and it was so painful and I ended up getting actually x-rayed pregnant with Max. I didn't know, so fortunately he survived the x-ray of.

Sam: 35:24

Maybe they made him a giant huge.

Tayla: 35:27

Maybe he's so big, but they did x-rays, they saw the stuff, but then I was confirmed pregnant a week later and they're like we can't really treat you very much while you're pregnant. I suffered so hardcore. I tried everything chiropractics, I tried physical therapy, I tried whatever small doses of I don't remember which one I'm allowed Tylenol or ibuprofen, the one that I'm allowed as a pregnant person and I just suffered the whole flipping pregnancy, just literally gosping in pain, standing up, sitting down. It was horrible.

Tayla: 36:10

Right after Max was born, I felt a little bit of relief, obviously the pressure and the weight and the distribution of my freaking insides, but it didn't go away. And so, now that I could properly treat it, we tried a whole bunch of stuff MRIs and the works and then eventually they sent me to a pain management clinic and we tried so many things and nothing was really working. And so finally this surgeon was like listen, you've got three options. One, we can do surgery on your spine, which I'd like to avoid because you're in your 20s and if you can avoid that, you should. Two, you can take 2000 milligrams of ibuprofen every day and wreck your kidneys or liver whichever one it is and it's not sustainable but it might help.

Tayla: 36:59

Or three, when you talk about medical marijuana, and I was like bing, bing, bing, option number three please. And it was kind of intimidating. But I went to a doctor, I went to a pharmacist, they walked me through this whole thing and I got like a medical cannabis card and, um, I just chose not to smoke because I have always thought smoking is just dumb, but um, so I had to get like the gummy version, that sort of.

Sam: 37:27

Thing.

Tayla: 37:28

And, um, just kind of felt pretty weird about it, cause, again, this is not something that I had been really open to or thought that I would ever do, but started a micro dosing, which is the point of it and first thing I noticed was not really like pain management, to be honest, it was like a mental health assistance. I like felt so much less anxious, so much less depressed. Um, but after like two, three, four months of micro dosing, all of a sudden like I didn't need anything anymore and I haven't taken like pain medication or needed to even take gummies for a couple of months because my back pain is gone. So the medicinal properties of that was really interesting. But that was kind of my first. Well, my experience with weed mostly has been like physical and mental health benefit to me, which was not something I expected at all, but I think it was really helpful that I had obviously both you with your actual experience um and like a doctor's assistance, but mostly you actually.

Tayla: 38:32

you helped me a lot to recognize like you have to be in a certain state or you're just going to have a bad experience. You have to be in the state of mind that you hope to excess or bait, yeah.

Sam: 38:46

Cause cause, even at, even at micro dosing levels, um, the amount that you're told to take is still going to like alter your mood or alter your, your thought process, et cetera. So if you go in there with a lot of anxiety, it's going to make you feel more anxious.

Tayla: 39:04

Yeah, Exactly, but if you go in there relaxed or excited like it'll kind of exacerbate that yeah.

Sam: 39:11

Right yeah.

Tayla: 39:12

So that was all really helpful stuff to know that they didn't really talk to me about, like medically. They kind of spoke to me about physical things, um, but I it's interesting right, I could see how you can overuse it, not to an addict, I mean, I feel like it's not an addictive substance, but I think the habit can be addicting maybe.

Sam: 39:33

Yeah, I'd say it's on the same level as like a caffeine or an alcohol. Exactly yeah.

Tayla: 39:38

Where you can just overuse it, but I would. I it's kind of the first time I understand someone like wanting to use a substance pretty frequently Cause same thing I grew up with a very like natural household medicine is kind of more of a lost result If you can tough it out some other way and um, so yeah, I just just hadn't had much experience with it. It was, it was interesting but unexpected and um, I could for the first time really understand why someone would get into a habit forming situation with any kind of substance. Yeah, uh, I guess, if you don't count food, I will say that I I feel like I do self-medicate with food.

Sam: 40:18

Oh for sure, Me too Still freaking working on. Yeah, me too. I think it's cause I just I've never set up those rules and boundaries and you know, maybe that's something that I should do. Um, it's, it's, I just haven't, I've always just let it, kind of let it be.

Tayla: 40:33

Yeah, yeah, I uh excuse me, goodness gracious, I have set up rules for myself and they've worked temporarily, but I, I actually do. I think I have a habit forming like unhealthy relationship with food. I don't know if it's like disordered already at that point, but I would say it's not healthy. Where I like, I just kind of go back to the same habits. Eventually, right, I kind of give up. It's just interesting, right. Any kind of substance can be pulled in that way. Yeah.

Sam: 41:03

You know, one of the things I was thinking about, uh, was just how much more mind-altering, um, pain medication is compared to things like moderate use of weed and alcohol, so like after you know surgery and after you know wisdom, teeth out or whatever. You know, I've taken pain medication and you're just like literally you know not yourself. Yeah, Not at all, not even close Um you're.

Tayla: 41:31

You're a little bit grumpy on those meds.

Sam: 41:33

Depends which one, but yes, there were after your nasal surgery.

Tayla: 41:37

You were like pretty mean, yeah, the one, no it was the.

Sam: 41:41

It starts with like a, C, I think. Um, I forgot what it was, but yeah, there was one that did.

Tayla: 41:46

Yeah, but it does. It alters people completely. That's why they yeah.

Sam: 41:51

And so the thing is, though, I think every single time, is that I think the way to protect yourself is always to realize that life is worth living for. In a sober state Like that's what the thing that you have to remind yourself is that it's good to go through sadness, it's good to go through pain, it's good to go through these things, and it does, you know, you don't always have to feel in a constant state of like, joyous happiness. To you know, like I'd say, enjoy life, um, or to be healthy in life. I get, that gets. That's the better way of looking at it, cause you, you want to have a long-term mindset when it comes to this. Yeah, so you know at the same. So then, at the same time, I think if people are terminal, I don't fault them at all for just being like hey, I've got one year to live, I'm I'm not going to not do substances, you know especially if you're dealing with, like pain, yeah, any sort of cancer.

Sam: 42:47

You know, I definitely like. I think that you know, go go ahead and just have at it, whatever you need to cope yeah. Because you know you no longer like trying to protect your other organs. You're like you're obviously not going to be in a place to be able to make dumb decisions. You're just going to be probably in bed feeling awful. So yeah, I get it.

Tayla: 43:06

Well, there's the interesting like cultural thing around some drugs, right. So the big one that I encountered that it was really helpful to have you around because you had already encountered it was this MDMA culture and it's a big culture here in Utah actually, molly, right. So we were speaking with some people that we know and they were going off about like this amazing heart opener drug that they, you know, take and it's not like getting high or whatever they explain it to be Like it's so good for processing trauma and like healing relationships and it healed this relationship with this person and that person and blah, blah, blah, right, and they really kind of like at the time I was like very interested because I was like, oh wow, like that's cool If they're saying it's supernatural and it's like. You know what I mean.

Tayla: 44:00

It didn't sound that looking back, it's kind of cult culty.

Sam: 44:05

It is.

Tayla: 44:06

We'll talk more about that in a sec, but I was super interested in it. We come home and I'm like what do you think of it? You know, and what was your response to your member?

Sam: 44:15

It's drugs. It's it's drugs and it's it's like like every other you know, mdma or Molly group that I've ever seen, which I've seen the number of in Miami, and then also around the country.

Tayla: 44:26

So you dated someone in like a deep community.

Sam: 44:29

That's how I got into it, so I didn't personally get into it, but that's how you exposed to it the community.

Sam: 44:33

Yes, so um, yeah, so I dated someone that was in that culture and so I was in the very like um meet. So, being a DJ and music producer, I was in the very like mainstream. This is just me personally. I was in the very mainstream, like the main clubs, you know, like everything you think on, like Instagram and like you know, everything was like popular I'm using air quotes right now and um this other group though, this naturalistic group, I I, I, these hippies.

Sam: 45:04

I didn't know anything about them, you know. You know they kind of exist, they they're. They're a burning man, they have their own little festivals. They're a different part of the music culture, but they exist and I had nothing to do with them. Anyways, I ended up dating this person that was in that culture and so I would bring her to these like mainstream clubs and shows, and she'd like turn her nose up at it and you know, like sell out kind of stuff, and I was like, yeah, I mean let's go to your clubs because they have their own clubs where they're playing like deep house kind of music, like you know it's it's way more drug culture in that way than like the other one which is I don't know Like alcohol, so the other one is more like um social climbing kind of focus.

Sam: 45:44

You know like how cool, you are how rich you are, and the other one is more like how connected to.

Tayla: 45:49

Yeah, how authentic are you? Yeah, exactly yeah kind of.

Sam: 45:53

So I got to see it, so I got to hang around those people and then it went from just like doing evening stuff to then like, okay, let's, we're going to go do this thing, we're going to go to go to this Field or whatever, we're going to do a pool party or we're going to go do like um, like a weekend here, and it's always that right and it's like super social right.

Sam: 46:14

Super social and um, I didn't partake in those situations because I was at first. I was just like, well, let me like feel this out, you know nothing against it. But you start to see a pattern or like or like um, an interesting group dynamic formed in, like cause, I cause, we'd go to multiple groups, right. So it wasn't just, she wasn't one group, she was like part of a number of groups and so it was always kind of the same dynamic. You've got like the young, attractive people and Everyone is just around them right and everyone wants to be their friends.

Sam: 46:48

Everyone is doing Molly at some point during the weekend or during the events or at some point so, and they all have different purposes. It's like you know, like for healing, or for just like connection, or if it's like you know being part of nature, or you just want to have a bit of experience with the music or something else. But Molly was a part of every single, every single event and anyways. But these social groups are all the same. It was so funny. It's like you have the young attractive group. You've obviously got the drug dealer somewhere else, not somewhere else, but he's or she Making a hull of a lot of money.

Sam: 47:22

Yes, and it was pretty funny. A lot of times there was always a couple right. It's kind of like this older dude that shouldn't be there with a kind of older girl that could still be there, and she's kind of seen as motherly and trustworthy and she or like therapisty, yeah, exactly. And they're the ones kind of centering the group like this you know thing.

Tayla: 47:46

Like guiding them through.

Sam: 47:47

Then you have the newbies, you have the stragglers, you know like you have people that are just kind of like, you know, trying to get into this, and then you've also got the group that are definitely all having sex with each other. Like that's another whole group, and so that's that whole thing and I'm telling you, like it was just like call and copy another group, call and copy another group call and copy another group and it just kind of all ended up forming that way.

Sam: 48:12

So, anyways, when you came, when you told me this thing, and I was like, oh no, that's Molly, they're doing drugs, like, and you're like, no, they're not.

Tayla: 48:21

Well, I just didn't know and they made it sound so different, but it really was so. A former boss of mine and she was just like so deep into it and flipping. Every month they would have this weekend away at this house where they're doing heart opening exercises and they're all like therapizing each other but none of them knows what the hell they are talking about. And the amount of like I could tell when she had gone to these weekends, because I would get just all these texts after the weekend over these mind blowing ideas that were actually like stupid, dumb ideas that I was just like oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to talk this person who has had this literally this manufactured high experience with some mind blowing idea that's actually dumb. I'm gonna have to try and show them and kind of bring them back to earth. And then there'd be the crash of like just grumpiness after a week because you have like a serotonin crash and I just had to deal with this all the time. But then there were like the weird dynamics again, just like really odd, inappropriate relationships between each other, and then super kind of culty like the amount of money being made that you have to pay for like one experience. It's like in the thousands right For one weekend and you have to get like this specific blend from this specific person right. It's all marketing and you can only like join if you know someone inside and they'll like bring you and vouch for you because it's limited spots.

Tayla: 49:52

And it was so fascinating for me to just hear about it and I had a friend who would kind of go. She didn't take the substances as much but she was socially friends with a lot of these people and they would be like a lot of these very successful companies, like all their business owners, are like coming to this thing and she said it was just fascinating to watch because they would all like again get into their like childlike behaviors or whatever and we just be so open to love. But actually everyone was fricking miserable. And she said a lot of people that went there as couples like trying to connect, like they wouldn't stay married because probably a whole bunch of stuff. But it's just fascinating to watch that culture and the money.

Tayla: 50:36

And I remember the boss lady I was at work. She brings a bunch of these friends in and I can immediately tell oh, these are. They call it journey, so that these are journey people and they were all asking me like oh so, do you journey? Do you journey? And it definitely felt like pretty culty, so just like fascinating how, when people are really into a culture or really into doing something, that they wanna share it with other people. But I think it's good to be aware of whether whoever's sharing whatever, because I think people have a lot of good things to share if they have experience. But you need to try and be aware of like signs of whether someone else might have an unhealthy relationship with a substance.

Sam: 51:23

Yeah, so I've done MDMA and a few times and I haven't done it probably in like a decade at this point, but you really do. The feeling is like pure joy, pure love, like if you think about like a moment, that it's just like you feel completely fulfilled and full of love. Now throw that into just a random other experience and you're associated with that thing. It becomes very dangerous.

Tayla: 51:51

Yeah, you're making like chemical connections with.

Sam: 51:56

Exactly so. I have nothing against the drug itself. I do have the utmost like respect for it, knowing that how powerful it is, and so it has to be used with the right people at the right time. So again, A group of people at a mansion is probably not the right yeah so you know, you hear about people starting to use it in therapy like real therapy.

Sam: 52:21

With an actual therapist With the licensed therapist and it's just you and them that there isn't gonna hopefully be inappropriate to get advantage of someone, but in a group environment like that, absolutely you can get yourself into all sorts of problems and that's why, when you had brought this up, I was like absolutely no.

Tayla: 52:44

But you don't say that very often it's because we're married right.

Sam: 52:48

So it's like if we were to ever do anything like that, it would not be with other people because of how many like, like you said, like all of a sudden you know you're hanging out with someone else and doing something in and you're feeling that pure love and joy with that person or that group or that activity. You've completely blurred the lines of like, appropriate relationships.

Tayla: 53:08

It's weird, yeah, yeah. So I think if we were to summarize kind of our experiences slash advice for substance use, a couple of things that I might say is just to be educated to use long-term thinking in short-term decisions. So don't just forget about tomorrow or 50 years from now. You need to be thinking about hmm, maybe there's a healthier way to do this, like, for example, taking gummies instead of smoking, you know, and then I would say, just be willing to recognize when you're starting to cause. I think in general like we've already spoken about caffeine food like you can get into the unhealthy balance of substance very quickly and I think being able to honestly recognize it and pivot as needed as quickly as possible is really important.

Sam: 54:04

Yeah, I think you summarize it really well. Yeah, I think taking away some stigmas around it is very healthy, but at the same time you know it's not something don't feel like you get. Don't feel the need to get peer-pressured into doing any sort of substance, whether it's like hey, I'm just never going to drink alcohol, and that's also perfectly fine too you know you don't need any of these things.

Tayla: 54:30

Yeah, well, this has been illuminating.

Sam: 54:34

How are you?

Tayla: 54:35

feeling now that your drugs probably kicked in.

Sam: 54:38

Honestly, it's probably this giant bottle of water I've been drinking. That's been the most, that's. I mean, that's a meme, you know if you're feeling sick, Tayla, have you drunk water?

Tayla: 54:47

Have I drunk water? Well, if it's all right with you, I'll go give you an energy drink so you can go right to sleep. Thanks for listening to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam: 55:02

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