Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad Trainwreck

What happens when a renowned anti-human trafficking activist turns into a subject of controversy? How does it influence the perception of the very cause they stood for? Join us as we navigate the tumultuous story of Tim Ballard, founder of Operation Underground Railroad, and investigate the serious allegations against him. 

We review "The Sound of Freedom", a film based on Ballard's life and work. While it certainly threw a spotlight on human trafficking, we ponder whether it effectively tackled the subject or missed the mark. As we delve into the film's reception, criticisms, and box office success, we also contemplate its role amidst the ongoing controversy surrounding Ballard.

From exploring the timeline of Ballard's journey to dissecting the repercussions of his departure from the organization, we scrutinize every facet of this scandal. We conclude with reflections on the fight against human trafficking, sharing resources for those committed to waging this battle. Join us for a captivating conversation that straddles controversy, and film critique. So, are you ready to dive into the deep end of a heated debate? Tune in now!

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What do you know about the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo, Sam?

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:33

All in all, pretty disappointing Robi game to watch.

Sam: 0:38

Yeah, you know I'd love to blame the ref, but honestly we missed 11 points on kicks and that's our own fault.

Tayla: 0:48

Yeah, and for those of you not sitting on a cushion, just kidding, that's a line from Do you know?

Sam: 0:57

No.

Tayla: 0:58

From Night's Tale. South Africa is I mean, everyone is playing in the World Rugby Cup. South Africa lost to Ireland. It was a very controversial game in that South Africa I mean Ireland didn't win it, South Africa lost it, which they shouldn't have. And also the ref was pretty heavily strict on South Africa and lenient on Ireland.

Sam: 1:29

Yeah, yeah, I mean the ref thing is always going to be controversial, and so the only thing I really have a problem with the ref, like in total, is that it was the last play of the game.

Tayla: 1:41

Yep.

Sam: 1:42

We have a mall going towards the tri-line.

Tayla: 1:45

Literally right.

Sam: 1:46

Five meters away there's a collapse of the mall, which basically is Ireland, which is typically blown as a penalty towards against the defenders for collapsing it. But it was basically seen as a legal collapse, which I don't agree with but sure. But then he asked for is the ball out? And he's on the wrong side of the mall and doesn't see the ball come out, which was available. The ball was available for the scrim off.

Tayla: 2:12

Yeah.

Sam: 2:13

So it should have been either continuous play or should have gone the you know blown as a penalty.

Tayla: 2:18

We should have gotten the points and tied it up.

Sam: 2:20

Well, yeah, so it wasn't. You know, technically it wasn't guaranteed five points, but all I'm saying is it was a controversial ending because it would have been nice just to have at least seen it play out and not just ended by the ref on the call.

Tayla: 2:32

Just like that. Yeah, I still think South Africa has a good shot of winning the whole thing, especially now that our kicker is freaking arriving.

Sam: 2:42

Look, we lost. We won the Lost World Cup, and we lost to New Zealand in our pool stage as well, so it's entirely possible.

Tayla: 2:50

Probably that's what I'm telling myself.

Sam: 2:52

Yeah.

Tayla: 2:53

Coast of the Africa. Anyway, it was a fun game to watch until it wasn't. And hopefully the next game. Who are they playing next?

Sam: 3:00

They are playing Tonga.

Tayla: 3:02

Tonga. Okay, well, that should be it. I mean, is it controversial for me to say that should be a chill game and we should win pretty handily?

Sam: 3:08

I wouldn't say it's a chill game, because Tonga is very physical and so it's I mean like points points wise, it should go South Africa's way, but Tonga always brings a lot of intensity, so you never know if what could happen.

Tayla: 3:21

True, true, true, all right, guys. Well, it's that time again, and that time is time for us to talk about the topic we've picked to talk about today. Today, we're going to be talking mostly about Tim Ballard, but we'll also be talking about the movie the Sound of Freedom that came out this summer. A little bit of background on both. The Sound of Freedom is a 2023 American crime action thriller film directed and co-written by Alejandro Montverde and starring Jim Cav Do you know how to pronounce that? Nope, Caviezel, mira Soravino and Bill Kemp. Essentially, jim plays Tim Ballard, a former US government agent who embarks on a mission to rescue children from sex traffickers in Colombia.

Tayla: 4:13

It is produced by a guy named Eduardo, who also plays a role in the film, and centers around Ballard's Operation Underground Railroad, his anti-sex trafficking organization. So the film was released July 4th, 2023, so American by Angel Studios. It was a sleeper hit, meaning it became one of the most successful independent films in history. It's grossed $212 million against a $14.5 million budget. So far, it has received very mixed reviews from critics, while reception on the audience has been pretty much positive. And then a bit about Tim Ballard, who the movie is about. Tim Ballard is an anti-human trafficking activist and the founder of Operation Underground Railroad or, as you'll hear, it referred to a lot in this episode and around OUR, a nonprofit organization, as we said, that rescues children from sex trafficking rings. I'll give a bit more of his timeline in his career when we start talking about him, but obviously there's been a lot of controversy around Tim Ballard, specifically in the last literally like week or two. It's like every day there's a new thing.

Sam: 5:22

Yeah, crazy.

Tayla: 5:23

So it's important enough, I think, especially to our American-based listeners, considering that Tim is looking at potentially launching a Senate run, but we'll be talking about him. So, babe, what do you know about Tim Ballard and the sound of freedom?

Sam: 5:39

I'll be honest, not a lot, only what I've seen on social media. For the most part I've done a little bit of research, but especially on the sound of freedom, kind of just read reviews and watch people's opinions on it. I never saw the film so I can't give an actual yeah. I saw the film in X, y and Z, so it's going to be an uneducated opinion.

Tayla: 6:00

On Tim Ballard though, you know more about him.

Sam: 6:04

So we've been hearing about Tim Ballard since, I guess, when they first started, Because here in Utah it's kind of a it's been a thing.

Sam: 6:12

Yeah, and honestly, seeing this happen like didn't surprise me. It wasn't like, oh my gosh, blah, blah, blah. I've always kind of been a little sus of Tim Ballard, you know. At the very least he seemed like a very ego-centric this is all about me when he was doing these things, and at the very worst it seemed like a lot of like I'm doing all this because I have a lot of problems. Okay, does it make?

Tayla: 6:41

sense Kind of, but we'll get into it.

Tayla: 6:45

So let's first talk about the movie, just because I do think that was a tipping point or a launching point for a lot of the buzz around Tim Ballard himself today, and a little more like outside of Utah. So let's talk about the Sound of Freedom. The Sound of Freedom depicts Tim in his jump missions to save children and specifically kind of follows a jump in Columbia to save a brother and sister. It is a highly emotional film, which it should be. I mean child sex trafficking. I don't want to state that for the record, because apparently any kind of criticism of Tim Ballard and Sound of Freedom has been equated with oh, you're a pedophile and you're fine with people trafficking children, right? That's absolutely not true, and I am actually.

Tayla: 7:34

I've been a researcher of sex trafficking, specifically of children, for years. My degree was in international relations, with an emphasis in human rights and sex trafficking. My thesis was on human rights and sex trafficking, so this is obviously something that I'm passionate about and know a bit about, professionally and personally, right? So state that for the record. Very, anti-sex trafficking have dedicated a lot of my time and life and efforts to preventing and eradicating sex trafficking of kids specifically. So along with that, though, let's talk a bit about the movie. So the movie itself is. I think it's important in a lot of ways and this is a lot of people's argument for like support of it is that you know it's a really important topic. That is now the topic of discussion, commonly because of the movie. For some reason it became controversial. We'll talk about that in a second. But pretty much the argument from most of the like moderate right people for the movie is that it's a net positive because more people now know about trafficking and care about it. Right, yeah.

Tayla: 8:47

Any other things you've kind of heard about the movie?

Sam: 8:49

No, I think from that perspective, you know, I do think it's a net positive. I do. I have that same opinion that it's a net positive because it brought a lot of attention to the topic From that demographic. You know that it's sure that they wasn't a focus of theirs and I'd rather have that demographic be passionate about something like that than just passionate about you know. Hey, let's just stop what the left is doing.

Tayla: 9:18

Let's stop what the Democrats are doing and focus on a positive thing like that.

Sam: 9:22

So I do, I do think it's a net positive.

Tayla: 9:25

Yeah, okay, yeah, for me. I don't agree that it's a net positive, but I do think that's a reasonable, a very reasonable opinion and I don't know that my opinion is like correct, it's just like my opinion. So I actually spoke about a bit about this, like at the time in July, like a couple weeks after it came out, and I, some of the do you? I mean, is this a good time for me to talk about what I feel like is problematic with the?

Sam: 9:53

film Sure.

Tayla: 9:57

Obviously, the main thing is that it feels like it's become another political talking point rather than actually like we're kind of talking around sex trafficking rather than actually talking about sex trafficking. Right, it's like you support the film or what. What's wrong with the film and what's wrong with the producers and what's wrong with this, this and this, rather than being like, well, sex trafficking, let's see if we can align on what it is and how to handle it, right. So I don't like that we're missing the mark and kind of that. People have settled into their corners of the ring, so to speak, with the movie and with sex trafficking, but actually not right.

Tayla: 10:35

But one thing that, um, I also said was just that I think a lot of what was portrayed in the film just wasn't accurate to how most sex trafficking occurs.

Tayla: 10:51

Not that it doesn't occur the way that it was portrayed in the film, but that by portraying such kind of a dramatized view and then saying, well, this is based on a true story, even though we know that obviously it kind of was, but but the actual depiction of the issue that was being filmed like didn't even happen, that way, I think the inaccuracy of the way that the story and the, the trafficking and even the rescue was depicted then shows people an inaccurate view of like what to oppose, and in my mind, I think the miseducation can cause people to throw money, time, efforts into a direction that isn't very effective and there's way more effective ways to do that.

Tayla: 11:43

And that actually speaks to also in general, how OUR operates as an organization. While they have done a lot of good and have saved a lot of kids, that is true they are not operating in the most effective ways to combat sex trafficking and to ensure that victims saved do not return to be victims again because of aftercare, that sort of thing. So essentially, I had a problem because it was not accurate and people are really kind of dying on the horse of like no, this is, this is the true story and this is what Tim does.

Sam: 12:22

I hear you.

Sam: 12:25

I think one of the things that we, you know, should not be or try not to be critical of, is that there are going to be causes and things that people focus on that isn't going to be the most effective use of time or the most effective use of money or the you know this is what's going to solve most things, you know, and, and so I think giving people a space to be like yeah, this is the like, this particular brand or style of child sex trafficking, is the most important to me because, for whatever reason you know, I think we should allow that, and I think having making a movie, a movie about it, should be allowed.

Sam: 13:05

I think where it goes wrong for me is that the discussion afterwards isn't, you know, so, the movie's fun. You know, the depicting it's fun. It's the discussion afterwards where there's like, you're saying there's been a missy of the mark, where I agree with, where it's like, you know, you have the people on the right saying you know, this is the, you know, everyone needs to support this cause. Everyone needs to support, you know, stopping, uh, um, trafficking this way. And then you've got people on the left going yeah, I hear you, but it's also 90% wrong, um, and you should be doing it this way. And so what ends up happening is you talk past each other.

Sam: 13:45

And so they both can be right opinions they both can be like, yes, doing it another way will be 90% more effective, but they're not wrong by saying, okay, I would love to be able to, you know, support this movie and supports the the sort of a cause. So it really is very, you know, heart wrenching to hear and see something. You know stories like that.

Tayla: 14:07

Yeah, and I mean I I'm hearing you and I agree, um, in a lot of ways, and I do think that, um, because again it does occur. I think the problem is just that I mean and that's pretty much everyone who actually works in the sex trafficking space, who is an expert, who does research and who is also there's sex, sex trafficking advocates, or they also own organizations to combat sex trafficking. That's the people whose voices I was trying to pay the most attention to, because they actually know and they had big problems with the film. And in fact, there there's a quote from Aaron Albright, who's an attorney who's worked in anti-trafficking for like over 15 years. She said what they are learning is what people observing the film are learning is so divorced from reality that it does sling back to create harm. It creates harm when certain policies aren't passed, because we think trafficking looks one way and it's actually another way. It creates harm when victims don't recognize themselves in these narratives, and that was my issue with it.

Tayla: 15:14

It's not that it's not that we shouldn't or couldn't throw resources in this direction, it's that it doesn't then also provide. Like you know, I feel like if you are being really responsible with a film depicting sex trafficking and trying to get people on board that you would be a lot more open, especially at the end of the film. There's huge opportunity for education. To be like this is just one way that this happens. And also sex trafficking looks this way, and here are some resources, no matter what kind of situation you're in. And so I think people just kind of think this is sex trafficking, when actually it looks a lot different for the most part. And then people aren't pushing their legislators to look into these specific issues, to pass these different laws Like they're. They're focusing on building a wall in the border because they're thinking, oh, this is how trafficking happens, when actually it happens this way or that way.

Sam: 16:14

Sure. So again, for me, the movie isn't the problem, it's the dialogue afterwards. It's the dialogue from the actors, it's the dialogue from the producers, it's the dialogue from the supporters that are, all you know, focused, exact, you know, saying that same, saying that narrative, instead of, like you know, what other experts are saying. They're not, like you said, being responsible with the amount of traffic and with the amount of viewership they got. But I think the film itself, I think, doesn't need to be beyond responsible from telling the story that it wanted to tell.

Tayla: 16:49

Yeah, I think that's actually fair and and I think I'll like swing my opinion a little more that direction on like, yes, I do think could it have been handled? Should it have been handled differently? I mean, I can still have that opinion and be like.

Tayla: 17:01

OK, yeah, sure, yes, but I do think that the PR afterwards, the fueling of this political fire instead of focusing on the actual issue, which did happen, not only by just people, but also by producers of the film, etc. It was totally irresponsible and making it so that people, instead of listening to like, oh, I'm really passionate about this, let me learn more about it and listen to all these experts, it's like no, I'm not going to trust them and their pedophiles because they're yeah so I do.

Tayla: 17:31

Yeah, I think you're probably right that it's more the aftermath, but I do.

Sam: 17:35

There is again I'm going to be supporting something that you've been saying there are, from what I understand, parts of the film that don't do an accurate job of portraying who are the perpetrators or the supporters of these things. So what ends up happening is you have people criticizing the film and so everyone then goes huh, part of the political elite, part of the people that are, you know, oh, you've been found out. You are part of the people that are trying to make this happen.

Sam: 18:04

Yeah that's what happened. It became a political talking point and, in a way, to divide us and not like you know. What should have happened was yeah, you know the left has been very passionate about causes like this for a very long time, so it could have been that one of those moments like awesome, this is something that can unite us, but once again, it's a thing that you know divides us.

Tayla: 18:27

Yeah, and I think that, how do I put this? I think that, no, I mean, I think I'll leave it at that. I mean, honestly, that's, that's the case and I just I, I'm okay. This is what I was going to say is that it does start to feel a bit icky when the response to criticism valid criticism every film should have criticism, right. It's not like this film was specifically being targeted as some sort of contra, you know, conspiracy, right? So, as it was being justly criticized, the producers they start to be like no, you should support it more by coming to see it more and make, like, make, send a message to everyone that this is making so much money. And I was like that became a little bit like gross where I was like so your solution is for people to spend money on the film. That's making you money and it's not a part of the nonprofit and it's not actually part of, like, sex trafficking prevention. To send a message to like this other side. That isn't actually another side, you know, yeah, exactly.

Tayla: 19:36

So I don't like that either. Okay, let's move on to one of the more this is, the more recent interesting kind of thing. So let me give a bit of the timeline of Tim Ballard, who he is, what's gone on, then we can engage with it. Sound good.

Sam: 19:55

Yeah.

Tayla: 19:56

Okay, so Tim Ballard worked as a counterterrorism intelligence analyst for the CIA from 2002 to 2005, at which point he served as a special agent for the Department of Homeland Security, where he was assigned to the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force and deployed as an undercover operative for the US Child Sex Tourism Jump Team, and he did that from 2005 to 2013. Okay, at which time, he says and I'll speak to this actually in a second at that time, in 2013, he was frustrated by the bureaucracy and the paperwork and the things you had to work behind by being part of a government to do this, so he founded a nonprofit called Operation Underground Railroad in 2013. In 2017, he briefed Ivanka Trump, who's the special advisor to the president at the time, on the issue of child sex trafficking. And in 2018, our had they reached a milestone where they had rescued over a thousand trafficking victims in 12 countries. In 2019, our launches the Freedom Business Alliance, which is a coalition of businesses that are committed to fighting human trafficking. In 2020, our had rescued over 2,000 trafficking victims in 19 countries. In 2021, our launched a Freedom Exchange, which is a cryptocurrency exchange that donates a portion of its fees to support the fight against human trafficking, at which point we get to about 2023, which I'll get to in a minute.

Tayla: 21:39

But I do want to say that I have a personal experience with Tim Ballard. I, as I said, was studying this specifically in university and in my human rights class. Tim Ballard came to speak in 2020. I think it was 20, it was either the end of 2014 or the beginning of 2015. And he came presented to the class. It was right around when their first documentary, the Abolitionists, came out, and so this is right before like their first showings of it and stuff. And he came, he spoke to his cause.

Tayla: 22:17

I was so inspired by the man, like, truly, I thought this is such a good person. Doing this is my calling, and I feel like he made it. He helped a lot of people to feel like that that too, which is a good thing, right, and I had this experience with him. I considered working for him a lot of times and I just have to say like, at the time, I was very, I believed him very much on his intentions. I still don't know really what to make of that now, but I was very inspired by him and thought he was an amazing person. I donated money. I have done quite a bit as far as like just on the donation support side of OUR at those beginning stages. So kind of cool that like I know him, I met him. He looked pretty different back then. That was a surprise when I saw like recent pictures of him, but really, really cool experience. So obviously in light of recent reports, that's that's pretty huge fricking bummer.

Sam: 23:17

What are the recent reports?

Tayla: 23:18

Okay, so to summarize, in 2023,. Just a couple of weeks ago, in August, vice published a series of articles that raised questions about OUR's methods and effectiveness. The articles alleged that OUR often conducted sting operations without coordinating with local law enforcement, which put victims and undercover operatives at risk. They also alleged that OUR inflated its numbers of rescued victims and that some of its operations were staged for publicity. Tim's obviously denied the allegations, calling them false and defamatory. The articles then have come out, and how to explain so obviously. Recent reports have raised further questions to do with specifically, like Tim Ballard as a person. What was the first thing that really came out?

Sam: 24:18

There was a. So it wasn't the sex abuse or the abuse of sex misconduct. So he was either forced to resign or he was fired from underground operation, underground railroad, and it was because of the sexual misconduct stuff, but it was hush hush.

Tayla: 24:37

Was that the first thing that was reported, though? I'm trying to think there was like a Okay. So Vice reported an anonymous letter sent to the employees of and the donors to, the anti-trafficking group asserts that Tim Ballard left the organization recently, as you said, after an internal investigation into claims made against him by multiple employees. So that's what the letter stated. It didn't say what kind of claims, but later Vice reported that his departure followed allegations of sexual misconduct, which we can get into in a minute. But the contents of the letter were published on September 17th and it alleged a pattern of grooming and manipulation of women affiliated with the organization by Tim. Specifically, and the same week that the allegations were made public, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of which Tim is a very public figure and member, denounced Ballard publicly in kind of a twist of that's not how they usually do stuff.

Sam: 25:50

Very rare.

Tayla: 25:52

Very.

Sam: 25:52

Because and this is my, I mean connecting the dots opinion there was a connection between him and one of the you know, Apostles, which is the leaders of one of the top 15 leaders of the earliest church, because they have the same last name and they did have a relationship and it came to light to them that he had been abusing that relationship to gain advantages and also they apparently have a business together that has also been very quiet and under wraps but, now, that is all now coming to light, and so to get ahead of it the oldest church in a very, very rare thing personally named him.

Sam: 26:46

And that's only because of the relationship between him and one of the Apostles.

Tayla: 26:50

Right, and so they said so. They publicly denounced him, stating that he had used the name of the church leader, m Russell Ballard which they have no relation besides the match name for personal gain and called his conduct morally unacceptable. And Ballard the next day denied accusations, saying that they were baseless inventions designed to destroy me and the movement we have built to end the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable children. So, wow, a lot, a lot to unpack, and I will say this is like such a weird, interesting thing to watch like staunch members of the church be torn between supporting the church and what they say and supporting like this new savior, like figure in Tim Ballard to them.

Sam: 27:45

So it's. It's super interesting because the church is hands are dirty too, in a way because of M Russell Ballard, and so they're getting ahead of it and basically trying to take a big giant step away from it and saying we've got nothing to do with this. This is all this guy's you know misconduct and stuff. But they definitely enjoyed the publicity that they brought and the you know the moral high ground that they got from. You know being associated with Underground. You know operation underground railroad. You know at an arms length.

Tayla: 28:19

Yep.

Sam: 28:21

But yeah it's. It's kind of a messy, dirty thing for both parties. Obviously 75% of it on Tim Ballard, oh absolutely.

Tayla: 28:30

But it is, like it just fascinating to watch because the church did scrub their media of all mention of Tim at around the time where they denounced him. So he had a bunch of articles written of him and about him and about his mission Because, again, to everyone, this was a really amazing person doing really amazing things and unfortunately, that is the typical public opinion of people who can be sexual predators. Obviously, that's very strong wording. I'm going to bring in some evidence to back up my claim.

Tayla: 29:07

But yeah, so kind of how a lot of this started was Mitt Romney, around September 13th ish, announced that he's not going to be rerunning for his Senate seat, and then it was outed, not by Tim by, but by quote reliable sources that Tim was looking to run for that seat, which did end up being true. He posted some really cryptic acronym on his page with an American flag it's TOGFO, and let's all just go ahead and guess what that stands for, because I have no idea, but he posted that and then it just hashtagged it as well. But that happened first, everyone being like, oh wow, like he's just been on this podcast with Trump, he's just been on this media run with Trump specifically and with, you know, for the movie. And now he's going to be announcing his run and then bam, the church drops that denouncing and that kind of like.

Sam: 30:13

I think it's going to be an effectively destroying his chances.

Tayla: 30:17

You think?

Sam: 30:18

Yeah, absolutely. Do you think Absolutely?

Tayla: 30:20

Okay, all right, all right, so he, we know that Emerson Ballard was heavily involved in Tim's for-profit ventures, right and um, I do think that that's, as you said, part of why the church, as this was all coming out and they got information about his activities and stuff, they were like, oh crap, like not only have we, you know, it's just what.

Sam: 30:55

No, keep going, Keep going. I'm listening.

Tayla: 30:56

So I, I, it's, I don't know it's, it's, it's complicated and it was interesting because I do feel like Mitt Romney and Tim Ballard are so different politically as well, like they're very opposite. I really like Mitt Romney, Like I do too.

Sam: 31:13

I mean, and a bunch of Democrats also were like, and also moderates and Republicans, when he was saying, yeah, I'm moving out the way because I'm old, I'm a boomer. I'm totally detached from he's I'm summarizing his words of my own I'm detached from the, the current, you know uh needs of the general public. You know I'm old, let's get someone young in here. Yep, I think that's. You know I'm not going. It's not the word noble, but I think it's a very um, responsible thing to do. And it continued my support of Mitt Romney as a Republican.

Sam: 31:46

That I really enjoyed supporting Right.

Tayla: 31:49

But the relationship is so interesting because Mitt Romney has also been like a great poster child for the church. Um, but actually, though.

Sam: 31:58

But, but yeah, he has he was a highly successful businessman which was like one of the like tenants of being a Mormon back in the days was being a really good business business person.

Tayla: 32:08

And then he was right.

Sam: 32:08

And building that off of like honesty and integrity and family values yeah, and then he does a great job being governor, and then he does a great job saving the Olympics here in Salt Lake in 2002. Right, unfortunately, he, you know, had two unsuccessful runs at the presidency.

Tayla: 32:25

Right Fascinating.

Sam: 32:26

But, uh, I feel like a you know someone that's um represented what I'm going to say true Republican values for a very long time.

Tayla: 32:35

Right and objectively. Again, my view of Tim was that I mean minus some kind of fantastical political beliefs. To me, again, this is all my opinion. Uh, I thought like he probably would share those values of like just trying to be a successful businessman and being like a really big family man. But then, bam, 18th of September, another article comes out saying that he actually was ousted because of sexual misconduct allegations. I'm going to read some of that report of like what specifically he did, because it is really fricking horrible. So here it goes.

Tayla: 33:13

So, um, allegedly, tim invited women to act as his wife on undercover overseas missions, ostensibly aimed at rescuing victims of sex trafficking. He would then allegedly coerce those women into sharing a bed or showering together, claiming that it was necessary to fool traffickers. It is said that he has also sent at least one woman a photo of himself in his underwear festooned with fake tattoos, and to have asked another how far she was willing to go, in the words of the source, to save the children. So well, well right, all of this is gross because and Tim comes out he came out with a video which I watched the whole thing, and he's like oh, this is like a very well known common practice that we've successfully used for years to um to find out what the truth is to fight sex trafficking.

Tayla: 34:13

His claim is that we have always used a husband and wife, because when you are claiming to be a buyer of children and you don't partake immediately, then there's huge questions and you lose credibility, which is true. And he says that their, their husband and wife thing was to have a wife or a girlfriend or whatever be there so that they would have a reason to not partake and engaging with these children sexually right On like, and he kind of says it it's kind of like oh, later, like I can't my wife's here or my girlfriend's here. So that's his response to this allegation, but he doesn't actually address the okay. So where?

Sam: 34:57

where are?

Tayla: 34:57

the traffickers when you're showering together and you're pressuring them to, like, sleep in the bed with you, like where are the? You know he doesn't actually address, like and I didn't also send nudes essentially saying how far are you willing to go to save the children? Like I think that's such a manipulation of women and women that are very deeply um committed to helping children. How far are you willing to go to to save the children? It's like a really gross misuse of the power that he had over them and like their trust in his knowledge of how this stuff has to work.

Sam: 35:34

Yeah.

Tayla: 35:35

And this has been alleged by at least seven seven women so far, and counting Um, let's see. And then says it was ultimately revealed, through disturbingly specific and parallel accounts, that Tim has been deceitfully and extensively grooming and manipulating multiple women for the past few years, with the ultimate intent of coercing them to participate in sexual acts with him, under the premise of going where it takes and doing whatever it takes to save a child. So thoughts on that.

Sam: 36:07

Yeah, no, he's, he's definitely. I feel like, if, if you felt like he started off on the you know in the right path, definitely someone that I feel, um, either you know, deviated from that because of you know him having his own demons and you know, uh, uh, you know taking advantage of his position of power and and taking advantage of women. You know it's, it's, there's no excuse for it. No, there's no excuse for it.

Tayla: 36:41

No, I don't think there is. And a lot of defenders of Tim will say like, well, where are the women? Why are they being anonymous, Like where's the proof Right? What do you say to them?

Sam: 36:53

Well, I mean, there there's, there's not just these allegations, there's going to be follow up from these allegations. So, yeah, I mean, feel free to, you know, suspend your disbelief, Um, but at the same time, I wouldn't be on the side of supporting someone that has these allegations. But you know I, you don't also have to condemn the man until you fully know the story. But at the same time, this is a good time to kind of call a time out on all your support of underground railroad and, you know, in support of Tim Ballanty, like, hey, let's just see how this plays out, because that there's a lot going on that makes you look real not good. A lot going on, not just these allegations.

Tayla: 37:33

Yeah, um, I think that's a really balanced view and obviously, like, my emotional side is like um, I mean, let's believe women, you know, or let's believe children. That's literally the point of sex trafficking.

Tayla: 37:46

And the only way that you can combat it is by believing victims. But at the same time, I do agree it is necessary to have real evidence and to not, um have falsities thrown around and just believe. So how I mean I do. I do think that there are pieces of evidence right now that are worth believing. So the fact that he has been ousted from his own company is huge.

Sam: 38:10

They don't just do that if they don't just do that right.

Tayla: 38:14

And then testimony actually means a lot in a court of law. It's huge testimony, can literally convict someone. Just testimony right. Obviously these are not testimony. I mean, actually they could be testimony under penalty of perjury, just depending on who is running the best investigation and stuff but just a testimony, quote, unquote. If people are saying like you can't just believe what someone testifies, it clearly just doesn't understand like how law works and how evidence is, what evidence is admitted, I think Well, I fully believe in due process, and due process doesn't involve inaction.

Sam: 38:50

Due process involves action, step by step. So I believe in due process. You know in in in this case, but also like, for example, when you think about like, hey, believe children, you know you go through a due due process. You don't just go, oh, this child said that, you know my father beats me. And you go to meet Lee and you know, decide to go be judge during executioner and be like, yeah, I'm going to go beat up this dude because he beat up this kid. You take actions, due process. You take actions to find out. You know, hey, is this true? What happened? Oh, this kid was just telling a lie. You know, or you know, oh, found out that this kid did get beat. You know, was in the next. What's the next?

Tayla: 39:27

step.

Sam: 39:29

So you know, right now we are part of that due process with Tim Ballard and I, and part of that again is suspending the, the you know full judgment of hey, this is actually what happened to. Oh hey, there's evidence here and there's been an accusation here. Let's follow due process.

Tayla: 39:46

Yeah, okay, yeah, I mean that's a good point, but I do also think some other evidence that has come to light does it should come into sway on, like okay, so if these people around what was going on, or saying like, yes, that was my experience, like I wasn't a victim, but I did notice this and this and this like we're not even getting into the like psychic channeling and the like, abuse of money donated to the company not being spent on taking care of kids and orphanages and like the lies around that.

Tayla: 40:22

So we're not even getting into that right. But there was also an article that the sound of freedom producer, who went on a jump with Tim, felt the naked breasts of an underage trafficking victim yeah, and they caught that the exchange on camera and audio because he was mic'd. And what ends up happening is, you know, they're in a situation that he argues like oh, I had to kind of do what I had to do. But essentially someone says to him oh, I don't know how wise it was to grab that girl's boobs, and it was a it allegedly a 16 year old. And he says his response is, quote you didn't get that on video or anything, did you? And then another person responds the only thing you have to do is not tell your bishop. And then the Hutchinson, the producer laughs.

Tayla: 41:20

And like that kind of behavior on like okay, so you're there saving victims, but you actually exploited a victim and laughed about it Again. Like I just I understand that if you're in like a situation you're not trained for, that could be dangerous and panicking and like maybe making a decision that was wrong. But the behavior after you make a mistake like that is not laughing about it, joking about it, checking that you didn't get it on camera, and then like arguing and saying, oh, she was actually an adult. The argument would be like wow, like I was not equipped to deal with this situation. I panicked, I was afraid and I felt like I needed to sell that I was actually buying these people. You know what I mean. I'm like okay, let's see any other like thoughts on OUR or Tim in general.

Sam: 42:12

Well, so I feel like this is a similar like situation to the Salamander letter or Salamander letters, I don't know if you remember it's a oh, you're gonna have to give a lot of context for that.

Sam: 42:24

So back in I think it's late 70s, early 80s. This guy that was a quote unquote renowned archeologist, historian, archeologist for the church, not for the church, but focused his efforts on LDS church like historical things. He was forgerying all of them, but he had created a number of forgeries that had fooled the apostles, the leaders of the LDS church and you know. The church came out in support of these things and then it all blew up in. You know the church's face Well, literally the Mark Hoffman ended up, you know, actually blowing people up Like you're murdering people.

Tayla: 43:07

Yeah, you murder people.

Sam: 43:09

I'm laughing, but it's just awful.

Tayla: 43:10

It's shock yeah.

Sam: 43:12

But yeah. So this kind of reminds me of that, not that Tim Ballard has murdered people, but the fact that there's been this like once again fooling of the LDS leaders who are supposed to be I'm not gonna say perfect, but there's a sense that they're discerning right Discerning and they should be better than having been fooled by you know, such level of you know con man.

Sam: 43:40

And here we are again and I feel like this is a similar situation where the church was conned and tricked into having a close relationship and support of Tim Ballard and that's why they're very quick They've learned from last time to be very quick to diss themselves and just completely sabotage and literally try to wipe the internet clean of any sort of relationship they've had with them.

Tayla: 44:05

Yeah, man, I think that is really interesting and I mean that's the hard thing is you know, like I said, I did meet him. I could have been fooled as well, like perhaps he's been predatory and manipulative the whole time, but it's possible that the relationship with him and the church, or him and Ballard, was founded on a different person eight years ago and that's just the whole thing is just really unfortunate.

Tayla: 44:35

I mean, the whole thing just sucks because such a good cause, so important and such well-done marketing to get people on board and to really be caring and putting literally time, money, resources where their mouth is and like I care about children, like let's get this done to just have this be so abused.

Sam: 44:54

Yeah, so here's the vibes I got Cause. I think I was at one event with Tim Ballard and obviously seen a lot of media with him back in the days, you know, especially when we were first dating, and he gave me off vibes. So the same kind of vibe like when your you know your partner or girlfriend, or you know someone has a guy friend and you're just like I can tell what that guy's actually like, how he sees the relationship versus how the girl sees that relationship. It's kind of that same vibe where it's like there's something wrong with this guy, there's something not clicking for me, and so I just stay away, you know.

Tayla: 45:31

Yeah, cause I didn't get that, but that's interesting. So that's what I'm trying to say.

Sam: 45:35

It's like. It's just like a guy maybe is would have an easier time to be like yeah, something's not right there. It's kind of like I'm saying the same thing with that.

Tayla: 45:44

Yeah, maybe that's true. And then you just go.

Sam: 45:45

There's something off with that. That's the vibe I had, but you just can't. You know, maybe it's just it could be nothing.

Tayla: 45:52

It could be. That's the hard thing it could be absolutely nothing.

Sam: 45:55

So, you know, you don't think much of it, but then you start hearing more and more news and then, over time, you're like what the F? So where was it going with this? I had a thing, there was a thing. Oh okay, so put that in place in a column.

Sam: 46:11

And then here's one of the things I was thinking about Utah culture and why, you know, I feel like someone like Tim Ballard ends up, you know, succeeding so well in a culture like this is, I feel like there are so many well-intentioned people here in Utah and with the Mormon culture, you know, very well-intentioned.

Sam: 46:29

I really want to be good, I really want to be perfect, I really want to help everyone, but they're not giving space for imperfection, you know. They're giving space for everyone's got their own problems and blah, blah, blah. So what ends up happening is you end up having a lot of trust in people that are coming to you with a lot of promises and a lot of like, oh yeah, like you seem amazing, and they don't come into this with any sort of level of suspicion. And so what ends up happening is people like Tim Ballard end up taking advantage of a lot of people and they might not see it as advantage at first, but it definitely can grow into that, especially as you get more money, more power and more you know, ability to you know, like a lot of that ego building things. It's the same reason why Utah is the MLM capital of the world, it's also.

Sam: 47:11

This is gonna sound funny, but it's also one of the you know, influencer family, influencer capitals of the world, cause I think it's the same thing where people, it's the same.

Tayla: 47:20

They just trust. Oh yeah, I mean I know her and we've yeah, you know I would she wouldn't recommend something for me to buy, you know? Yeah, exactly.

Sam: 47:28

And so it's yeah, so Tim Ballard, underground Railroad what a disaster.

Tayla: 47:35

Yeah, it's sad, a sad, devastating one, and there is a post by a guy named Eric Muzos that I saw that really kind of summed up, I think, a lot of both of our thoughts. You can tell me at the end, but this was a post that he wrote. He said, as many of you have pointed out, I mentioned I was a police officer. However, I'm not judge and jury. Central to this sentiment is the tenant that do process matters, as it is a hallmark of our state and federal constitutions, and Tim Ballard is entitled to the same protections as anybody else. However, these protections are there to protect all citizens against the government.

Tayla: 48:12

As a private citizen with a public life, I have been on record supporting OUR and Tim Ballard for years. In light of the public scandal he now finds himself, in which he has publicly and emotionally brought the entire world into, and given that I have now been contacted by four credible female victims, all who have reached out to me, it is my right as a private citizen to choose whom to believe, just as you have the right to not believe. I not only believe these four women, but confidently believe that there are many, many more, and I believe it is duty to speak as he continues to take good people down with him. Soon all will be painfully revealed. There's no winners here. Further, it's worse than most can imagine and will sooner than later be coming out.

Tayla: 48:55

My withdrawal of support of him stems from that simple truth. If this goes to a court of law, tim Ballard will be entitled to all the protections that were afforded to him by public constitutional mandate. But in the court of public opinion, everyone has a choice. With the information we have obtained, I choose to speak in support of the victims. Time and history will soon tell whether I've chosen wisely. I think it's just a great thought on the difference between public, private blah blah, but yeah, thoughts on that.

Sam: 49:26

No, I agree with his sentiment. He's the one that's been getting the credible sources, he's been the one that's been hearing this and he's entitled to share those things and have an opinion about those things.

Tayla: 49:38

Yeah, agreed, and, as he said, time will tell. We almost delayed this episode because we're like, literally stuff is coming out every day. We might do a little mini-sode of updates if we find it would be helpful.

Tayla: 49:50

We have a great idea, but I do recommend just greeting, as much as you can, articles four against, neutral, whatever the case may be, and just trying to judge by someone's actions and their actions. And what I think of Tim is that when he's ever quote unquote addressing the allegations, he never is actually addressing them. He doesn't actually speak to them. That you know.

Sam: 50:15

Yeah.

Tayla: 50:15

Alarm bells, either way devastating. And, if you want, I think I can put in the show notes some reputable sex trafficking organizations that you can focus your time and energy and money if that's something you're interested in, and continuing to fight for this cause because it is so important. But ultimately I hope that we figure out as a society how to move on from this person who has disrupted this cause and continue on with the cause. So important is this.

Sam: 50:45

Yeah, can we title this Underground Rail Road train wreck?

Tayla: 50:49

We totally can. Yay, thanks for listening to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam: 51:00

Remember to rate, subscribe and review.