Sex Education | with Carlie Palmer-Webb

Have you ever wondered about the stories and experiences that shape sex educators and what drives them to teach this subject? With our exceptional guest, Carlie Palmer-Webb, a Christian sex educator, we shed light on this subject in a candid conversation. Carlie walks us through her journey, stemming from a minimal sex education upbringing, and how it pushed her to become the educator she is today. We engage in heartfelt discussions about our own journeys of learning about sex and how a lack of comprehensive sex education has impacted us all in different ways.

Carlie brings an empowering perspective to sex education, focusing on the importance of teaching children about sexual health. She believes that knowledge is power and that young individuals should be equipped to handle the relationships they may encounter in the future. We touch on essential topics like consent, safe and unsafe touch, and even media safety. The key, according to Carlie, is creating a safe space for open discussions about sex. A space where questions aren't just tolerated, but encouraged, which leads us to question - what role does inclusivity play in all of this?

Christian education on sexual orientation and gender identity can be a complicated terrain to navigate. Carlie guides us in understanding these complexities, emphasizing empathy and the need for affirming, safe environments. We question the future of sex education, the need for public health education, and the long-lasting effects of shame on sexual relationships. Come join us on this enlightening exploration through the world of sex education, where we not just learn, but challenge our own understanding.

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What do you know about the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo, Sam

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:32

Today Max said cheese. It was more like cheese.

Carlie: 0:39

It's a big deal. Cheese is like one of my you know, top three favorite booths, that's incredible.

Tayla: 0:47

Yeah, he's just waving around and cheddar cheese and he's like cheese. He doesn't say much, so it's like his maybe fourth of a word ever so.

Sam: 0:55

No, he mumbles a lot. It's so adorable. Yes they're all kind of sound the same.

Tayla: 1:01

He is one. He just turned one in June.

Carlie: 1:05

Oh my gosh yeah.

Tayla: 1:07

What a great word to add to his vocabulary. That's so cute Get it down. So how old is your baby now? He's just almost five months. Okay, that's like where a lot of fun stuff starts to happen.

Carlie: 1:23

It's such a fun age it's getting more and more fun. It's really sweet before this, but it's getting more fun.

Tayla: 1:32

Yeah, so he's awake a lot more. Yeah, I'm guessing.

Carlie: 1:37

Yeah, he's like so talkative, just squealing and cooing and just make constantly making noise, which I really like.

Tayla: 1:48

He's just like he's the best, and there was something about like I don't know if your baby's still waking up to like do any feeds at night, but there was something about them just waking up and start jabbering instead of like crying. We're like it's very annoying, but it's very cute.

Carlie: 2:04

I just I was working today and I just heard him. I was on the phone with him while I was working on my website and I just heard him, like chatting with himself in his room, waking up from his naps, and I took my friend over to the door on the phone just to listen to it, because it was so cute.

Tayla: 2:21

I love that. One thing we noticed between LN Max is that he kind of has like a deeper high voice, a boy high voice, which I didn't I don't know why, I just didn't expect, but it's very funny.

Carlie: 2:33

That's so cute. Yeah, I'm curious to see with more children or another child. Maybe I should say now what, what the differences are in these first few months. But it's been great.

Tayla: 2:48

Yeah, it is way different, right They've.

Sam: 2:51

So different? Yeah, no, they're just two completely different human beings. Max is super cuddly and Ella's kind of. You know, I like my space. I think it's organized.

Tayla: 3:01

Very independent, yeah, which will make for a great woman one day, but it's not easy as a toddler. But you guys, I have heard a third little, not little third voice with us here on the podcast, so I'm going to do a little introduction of our guest, our honorable babe today. So we have Carlie Palmer- Webb. Is that right? Do you do hyphenate? You do both. So Carlie is from. She says middle of nowhere, idaho. Do you want to elaborate?

Carlie: 3:35

It's a tiny little farming town called Weezer, like the band, oh, if that.

Tayla: 3:41

If I was from a town named Weezer, I would for sure mention that.

Carlie: 3:45

Yeah well, it's spelled like wiser, like Budweiser, but pronounced like the show. Really, the band has nothing to do with it, but it sounds like.

Tayla: 3:55

Okay, so she's from from Weezer, idaho, and was raised by wonderful Christian parents who Carlie says should win every parenting award other than sex education in the home. So several years, a master's degree in marriage, family and human development with an emphasis in healthy sexuality, right, yep? So that whole thing. Later, that's the hours of sex research. She has bound to become the sex educator that she so desperately needed.

Tayla: 4:24

Some of Carlie's core beliefs, as you probably heard a little bit in our intro, are that food is meant to be enjoyed, sex is a gift from God, jesus is the best thing to ever happen to her, being kind to people is really not that difficult, and that clothes should be comfy first, then cute. Carlie is an amazing social media presence of education that you can find at the Christian sex educator dot, or just the @Christian sex educator. On social media platforms I'm an avid follower and has some amazing resources to help people be educated in healthy sexuality and help parents to do better to educate their kids, and you can find all those resources at the Christian sexe ducator. com.

Sam: 5:07

Nailed it.

Tayla: 5:07

Welcome.

Carlie: 5:08

Carlie.

Tayla: 5:09

Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, we're stoked. I've been looking forward to this for a while. So I'm going to do a bit of an intro to the topic for the day and then we'll kind of just dive in, if that's okay.

Sam: 5:19

Let's do it.

Tayla: 5:20

All right. So today we're talking about sex education. Sex is a natural, healthy, healthy part of life, but it can be a difficult topic to talk about. That's why it's so important to have accurate and comprehensive sex education. According to a study by the good marker see if that's the right way to pronounce that, the good marker Institute only 25% of US states require comprehensive sex education in schools. This means that many young people are not getting the information that they need to make informed decisions about their sexual health.

Tayla: 5:49

There are many approaches, different approaches, to sex education, but all of them should be based on the principles of accuracy, comprehensiveness and age appropriateness. They like that's. That's kind of the rub. So sex education also should be inclusive of sexual orientations and identities, especially as that becomes more prevalent in society. An interesting kind of not twist, but a specific like demographic that sex education can be complicated in is the Christian tradition, and in the Christian tradition, sex is seen as a gift from God, but is meant to be enjoyed within the context of marriage. Many Christians also believe that it is important to teach young people about the importance of abstinence until marriage, which can make balancing sex education and spiritual beliefs somewhat difficult. So, babe, honorary babe. What do you know about sex education? So, karlie, you kind of I kind of said this in your introduction background bio thing, but you mentioned that, like, your sex education personally was minimal.

Carlie: 6:56

Yeah, I would maybe say nonexistent. So how do you feel?

Tayla: 7:04

like that yeah, tell us a bit about that. Like, obviously, as a child, you don't know what you don't know, you don't know what you're missing. But what? How did you kind of come to realize that and and the the issues that that might have brought up?

Carlie: 7:18

Yeah, well, my parents really were. I mean, I couldn't have asked for better parents. They're fabulous, we're really close and I adore them, and they readily acknowledge now that they really missed the boat on the sex education space. So, essentially, growing up we didn't talk about anything. I didn't know correct terms for body parts, I mean for genital, specifically, or breasts. I knew non sexual body parts because those are easy to talk about, right, right, much easier, right. I learned that periods were even a thing in the fourth or fifth grade maturation class that you have at school. I had no idea that was a thing before. That we didn't talk about sex. We didn't even talk about things like kissing or anything like that, right.

Tayla: 8:16

Oh man.

Carlie: 8:17

I mean my parents talked about ever, and at church I would learn things like wait until marriage to have sex, not knowing really what sex was. At one point my cousin I was, I don't know somewhere between 10 and 12, I would guess my cousin told me that sex was when someone else puts their tongue in your mouth and I believed her.

Sam: 8:43

The horror you know.

Carlie: 8:46

It was anything different at that age and then learned what sex actually was from friends at school, you know, and my friends that were having sex would tell me things that they were experiencing, you know. So that was basically the extent of my sex education, aside from maybe some reproductive health lessons in anatomy class at school. But I mean my middle and high school, I'm sure, did not have a comprehensive sex ed curriculum.

Tayla: 9:20

Right, probably not. So, sam, like what was your sex education? Like growing up. I don't think I really know. Actually I'm curious.

Sam: 9:28

I would have to say it mimics a lot of what Carlie has been saying. Very minimal, you know I have amazing parents, but it was pretty minimal so I'm just going to pick and you don't have any.

Tayla: 9:40

you're one of four boys, yeah.

Sam: 9:42

So very minimal talks. I think like there's little again. I'm trying to remember way back when you're so old.

Sam: 9:49

So there's like things that I remember my dad saying, you know, because he's a dad of four boys, he comes from a family of seven boys, so his things I remember him saying is, like, keep your hands in your pockets, like when you're on a date like that, let me tell you something. My dad told me. That's what he was telling me yeah, keep your hands in your pockets and you'll be fine, like that was the advice he gave me. And things in school were things like I actually didn't get any sex education in South Africa, which was like, looking back, I can't remember a single like class about it.

Tayla: 10:22

But I don't think I had it either.

Sam: 10:24

But I did when I moved to Utah. But I only got it my senior year because I was skipped up a grade and a half and so I kind of missed out on, I guess, when they were supposed to do it, cause I moved over when I was 14, so I kind of missed part of that stuff. So they realized that I needed that class to graduate. So I was like the older person in the class and pretty much all that class was just a lot of pictures of STDs and don't do it Like this is this is what's going to happen if you have sex.

Sam: 10:56

So that's where I remember from that and maybe there was more to it, but that's all I remember from it. I don't remember having any sex talks with my mom. There was nothing there and yeah, my dad was always just. It was always like a comment here or there, kind of like like that. I'm sure there's more like stuff, but there wasn't like a sit down and a chat, like a extended chat about what sex is and not. So I kind of learned sex from kids at school in South Africa, cause kids are having, are becoming sexually active, like when we're 12, 13. So I'm in grade six and seven when it's starting to like you know the other boys are talking about and the girls are being weird about it, and she was like what is happening, you know cause? Yeah, but that's pretty much it. Everything else is kind of learned, learned as I go, as I went, I guess.

Tayla: 11:45

Well, I I feel like so I had to say I didn't have sex education in school in South Africa. We had like hygiene, like body anatomy and hygiene kind of stuff. But I feel like my mom and and I say that specifically because my dad just was uninvolved and didn't want to be involved in this she came in with like every good intention to have like a really good the talk kind of thing.

Tayla: 12:13

She created like this laminated, bind bound book for like each child and it was like you know, talking about how she felt when she was pregnant with us and when we came, and it has how, how we've grown, and then like when we continue to grow up we'll become someone's princess, and like we'll become like a parent one day, and like how God sees you know that.

Tayla: 12:37

And she briefly kind of explained like anatomy and then the, the, the actual sex talk part, which was probably a couple seconds, was like a penis goes in a vagina and that is sex Cut and but it wasn't even like nothing of like oh, that's, that's it. Like kind of almost seemed like a plug to me. I was like, okay, that's you know. Also, you know you're thinking of your parents and like is that how they had babies? But that's really it. And so when I went, when I moved to the States and joined for a maturation class and they talked a little bit more about like what sex entails and can entail and what things can be perceived as like sex or sexual relations that are not just like penetration is actually when I realized that I had been sexually abused, like for years as a child, it was in that moment that I realized, like what had happened to me.

Carlie: 13:42

I had no idea before.

Tayla: 13:44

Yeah, so I was same age as Sam 14. And I had this, and that's when I kind of, that's when I finally like turned to an adult for help and talk to my parents, but before that I just I don't think I realized what was happening to me. So it was like great attempts but like definitely clearly like wasn't enough to help me to even know, like what was actively happening in my life, like at the time.

Carlie: 14:12

So yeah, and so, oh no go. I was just going to say I mean, of course, I was just devastating that that kind of thing happens and that it happened to you. That's so awful and I'm so sorry. Unfortunately, we know that that's so much more common than any of us would ever even like to imagine. Right, and that's just one of the reasons why sex education and comprehensive sex education from a young age is so, so important.

Tayla: 14:46

Yeah, and like as a parent now that's the kind of the main thing on my mind is just so that she is not only or or, and my son too I mean that's so common as well is just so that they will know what is happening ever and that they can communicate properly, like what that is, because I just don't think I would have had the words that, even if I knew what was happening, I don't know that I could have explained it to someone Right. So it's like a huge thing, like that's. You know, I wish I could say that like, just like sexual health and like well-being was like the top of my mind and I think it is like a part of my motivations as a parent. But that's kind of the main one for me, yeah.

Tayla: 15:27

Especially sex and ages, right, absolutely, absolutely. And we actually had, we had like a little experience where Ella she's only three and I just I just was shocked at how quickly it happened and it was a pretty innocent interaction. But Ella ended up playing like with a couple of kids and one little boy, also very small, four years old, like it was very innocent, but he exposed himself to her and it was kind of a.

Tayla: 15:53

She came out from the room like nothing fortunately happened and I don't I feel like the behavior, you know it wasn't malicious or but, I was surprised by how quickly stuff like that can happen and I was so grateful that she knew exactly how to tell me what had happened so I could explain and I could ask questions. Oh, it did. I mean this is. It's so funny, like I don't know why it should feel so weird to say, but like I could ask her hey, did anyone touch your vulva, did you touch anyone's penis, like, and could figure out exactly what happened, even with a three year old. But it happens, social stuff like that happened so quick. I just was shocked Like we had to kind of really pin down our parenting like plan for things a lot sooner than I thought we'd need to.

Carlie: 16:45

Yeah, it happens earlier than any of us want to think about or admit, or probably earlier than any of us plan for. But I'm like, as you tell this story most of, I'm just like celebrating inside that Ellen knew to come to you, that you're talking to her about a vulva and a penis and that you're asking her these questions. I mean, those are all the things that I hope parents are doing, so I'm really excited about that.

Tayla: 17:16

Yeah, well, a lot of your content has been like, I've been following you for years now, like, I think, as I was becoming a parent, and so a lot of those tools have just been things I kind of knew, but they've been reinforced by, like, the research that you're sharing and the tools that you have available. So it's been really helpful for both of us to just kind of be able to rely on like a research-based advice or tools and things for that. So I want to kind of ask you in a minute about what are the main resources that you recommend for parents to start navigating sex education with their kids. But before we pop into that, I just want to kind of ask at what point you realized that your sex education was lacking and in what ways it affected you, like, as you became an adult and eventually had I feel like sexuality is a part of your life, even if you aren't sexually active.

Carlie: 18:18

Definitely, definitely. Well, I think there were moments in my teenage years where I was like I think I should know more than I do, like when my friends started having sex and I realized that I didn't actually know before then what sex entailed not just, like we talked about earlier, penetration or intercourse, but other things as well. There were moments when I was like I think maybe I should know this by now. But it wasn't until I became an adult and went to college and started dating more seriously that I was like, oh my gosh, I really don't know what I should, even when it comes to things like consent and managing sexual arousal and navigating unwanted sexual behaviors not just sex itself and I had some religious convictions about waiting until marriage to have sex.

Carlie: 19:17

But there was so much more about my sexual experience and my experience in dating that I realized I didn't understand. So it was actually during my undergrad, when I realized that my understanding was really lacking, that I looked for resources and had a difficult time finding things targeted towards Christians specifically, but especially singles. I mean, there's lots of books many of which I do not recommend, targeted towards Christian couples, married couples, but I couldn't find anything targeted towards singles, and that was really frustrating. So it was pretty early on in my undergraduate degree, when I switched to human development, that I was like I think I wanna research this, I think that I want to contribute in this space. I didn't know that it would become my whole career, but Right here we are.

Tayla: 20:24

So you kind of navigated a lot of research before you became, like, sexually active. What was that like?

Carlie: 20:33

I guess, yeah yeah, I had graduated from my master's degree before I got married and became sexually active and my whole emphasis was healthy sexuality. So a lot of people ask if that was a really weird experience for me. But it wasn't actually at all. It was really empowering because I felt like I was actively choosing abstinence, instead of being guilted into abstinence or choosing it by default, kind of if that makes sense, like I'm just supposed to, so I will.

Carlie: 21:13

But I was really pursuing a comprehensive sex education for myself and, from a research standpoint, I was conducting research as well. But it felt like I was purposefully choosing my own sexual well-being, my own sexual behaviors, and I was preparing for the type of relationships that I wanted in the future. So I loved it. It was a little bit funny to present, like at research conferences yeah, people would find out that I went to BYU and they know that BYU is a religious school and they're like wait, they're setting sex and pornography and stuff and you go to BYU. Like that's a little strange, don't you think? But I loved it.

Tayla: 21:59

I thought it was great, yeah, and, as you like, started to kind of use social media to share what you were learning. I feel like that's part of why so many people resonated with what you're saying, because there just isn't that much out there especially for Christians.

Carlie: 22:18

So, yeah, it's still a space where we need a lot more people participating in conversations, so thanks for contributing.

Tayla: 22:30

You're welcome. So, in your opinion, if you were to kind of give like a hierarchy of most important things that parents should teach their children about sex obviously you don't have to get into like the whole, the details, but like kind of the main topics that you feel are very important for parents to teach children about sex what would they be?

Carlie: 22:56

Well, the first thing that I would start with is this is a very general piece of advice, not as much as specific teaching, but please just teach them something. Obviously, we'll talk about specific things that I think should be included in that education, but talking about it, even if you're not sure exactly what to say, is always a better option, in my opinion, than avoiding the subject. So if that's all you know to start with, great, start talking about it. Some big topics to cover with children and I would add, young children I mean, you're talking about these kinds of things with Ella already are consent, which would include things like safe and unsafe touch. They need to know what things are okay and what things aren't. Basically, so that includes correct anatomical terms for their body parts, like you guys have already done, and it includes knowing who can touch their private parts. So talking about okay, I'm your mom, I can touch your vulva when I'm giving you a bath and cleaning you, or when I'm wiping you or something like that, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to touch your vulva in these settings, right, even though I'm your mom. And then talking about you know when is and isn't appropriate for anyone else to be touching their private parts. That's a huge, huge thing for young kids because it's a big prevention thing, but it also just helps them to develop a healthy sense of autonomy and knowing that their body is their own, and that's really important for healthy relationships, including sexual relationships, as adults as well. So that's a big one.

Carlie: 24:52

Another big thing that I would say, especially right now, is just media safety. So kids need to understand that they will be exposed to sexual content and, sorry, I just had a funny flashback of I posted something a while ago about your kids will be exposed to pornography and I got a scathing message from I remember that was like how dare you, how dare you like, wish this upon my children or speak this on my children. Like, yeah, totally sorry, but not because it's. It's inevitable. All of our children will be exposed to sexual content, whether or not they seek it out, and they need to be prepared to recognize it and to know how to navigate when they see it, navigate it when they see it. So that's a big one as well. One other thing that I thought of when you asked that question, Taylla, was this isn't a specific topic necessarily, but one of the things that I would really focus on as parents in this realm is helping your children understand that all questions are allowed and safe in the home when they're asking parents. So like nothing, no topic is off limits. If they hear something at school, if they see something online, if they hear about something, they're allowed to ask you about it and say any word that they hear and describe anything that they've seen or experienced, and they won't get in trouble for that. That's a huge deal.

Carlie: 26:31

Children are naturally curious about their bodies. They're naturally curious about their genitals. They're naturally curious about sex. When they start to understand that that's a thing and those curiosities are good and normal and can be really helpful for you in teaching your kids, but only if you are a safe place for them to come. But if they come to you and say, hey, I learned about this. I heard someone say the word boner at school, can you tell me what that is? And you're like Don't say that word, you know right. It's less likely that they'll come to you with other questions that they have. So just, I mean, none of us will be perfect at this, but do your best to encourage your children to ask questions about bodies and consent and sex and then, when they do celebrate that they came to you, tell them that you're proud of them for coming to you with the question that they had, and tell them that you're so glad that they did, and then, of course, answer their questions Right.

Tayla: 27:38

So Sam is really, really good about being the kind of parent that I think, ella, she just loves to talk to him. What do you think? Just thinking of Sam parenting? What car is saying is obviously easy to say in practice.

Tayla: 27:57

but what do you think behaviors look like as a parent when your child is approaching you with perhaps like shocking questions or stuff that you like wish they didn't know or hadn't been exposed to, or things that you might be worried about? How do you think, as a parent, are behaviors to respond to in a situation like that? That would welcome and reinforce that.

Sam: 28:19

Yeah, I've got an example. I was just was just me and Ella, and we were playing at home I forget where you were, Tayla, and I don't know if you're at work or somewhere right and so we're just playing and she starts telling me this story about how this family member had a tail, and so all I did was, you know, just kept asking more and more questions and, you know, showing so much interest in the story, and Ella just kept telling more and more about the story. And as she kept telling more and more the story, I realized what she was actually talking about and she had seen a tampon string.

Sam: 29:05

Yeah, and so I. So I was like, okay, you know, just be normal and be like, oh, that's such an interesting thing. So I mean, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then when Tayla came home I said, hey, it was my family member. Yeah, so this is the story that happened.

Sam: 29:19

I think you should go talk to X, Y and Z, and just you know make sure, and then, once we figure out what happened, let's talk to Ella some more and contextualize the whole thing. And then you know we're all good at this point. But honestly, for me it's on, don't emotionally react, just be that safe place where it's. You know she's matching, I'm matching her emotions in the story and matching her and her feelings and, you know, not making it a big deal, but I think for me that foundation has always been I've always wanted to be just a person that my children can always trust.

Sam: 29:59

So I just spent a lot of time making sure that you know I'm not an angry person. I'm always approachable. You know that they can come to me and talk about anything, whether it's their stories, their anger, their sadness, and so when with this topic, you know on the sexual topic side, they can also talk to me about these things, as you know they happen or they're curious or they're worried, that you know there's never like a you're in trouble kind of you know feeling that have with me. So but at the same time I'm not trying to balance that with discipline, you know you don't just be a friend boundaries, and there's still other but yeah, that's that's.

Sam: 30:37

I put in a lot of efforts to be that kind of safe, that safe space, regardless of actual, you know, the sexual part of it, but just rather as just a human being, just to be a place for them that they feel safe.

Tayla: 30:51

So one thing that stuck out to me that you said was just kind of mirroring her emotions and her feelings about it. Carlie, do you find that that's maybe like one of the simple, but is that an effective behavior to, if you're not sure, like how to balance your emotions or how to respond? Is that a good like, maybe, starting point?

Carlie: 31:11

Yeah I. When he said that, I was like, ooh, I should add that to the parent guidebook yes, later, but no, I do. That's really good. Occasionally there will be maybe, especially as your kids get older and they have learned that some things are uncomfortable to talk about, even if they're not learning that from you. They might come to feeling really awkward, and in that case, of course, you wouldn't wear that the older back.

Carlie: 31:41

But especially when they're young. I think that's brilliant because little kids they don't. They have no context for sex being awkward or weird or strange, unless that is learned. So like Ella coming to you and talking about this person's tail like was totally normal for her and I love that you just carried on a conversation like it was totally normal for you to think that's great.

Tayla: 32:10

Yeah, it was I. That story makes me laugh so hard because this family member was trying really up there, very close family member. They asked for privacy to go to the restroom and Ella would not give it to them and so obviously there was a byproduct of exposure to, like a tampon string. That was not expected, but this family member obviously didn't know what we had educated Ella on and so when Ella asked what it was, she was just like don't worry about it, like ask your mom. Because like I had talked to Ella about periods and stuff before. That made it really easy for me to be like, oh, that tail is actually a string. You know how like mom has a period cup. She uses something else. So that's what that is, that's not a tail. Checking with the family member of like what was the circumstances by which she saw your tampon string, so, it was.

Tayla: 33:01

It actually ended up being really good, but it's true like I don't know, and mostly hilarious mostly hilarious. Now we make fun of that that family member for her tail pretty often.

Carlie: 33:13

Yeah, privacy. Privacy is not something that little kids are ever stoked about. They're not good at it. That's so, so normal and so healthy for that age, so I love the way you guys handled that.

Tayla: 33:27

Yeah, and I kind of you know, I try to think of it. You know, maybe in two years or three years this will be not normal or encouraged, but she is very, very little right now so yeah, the innocence is so beautiful, and so it actually is kind of cool to take this unique time where she's like literally so innocent, meaning so uninfluenced, to just teach information and like have it not be a bad thing.

Sam: 33:55

Yeah, you know. Yeah, we're not trying to make it. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, we're not trying to make it like it's a bad thing, you know, like genitals aren't a bad thing. It's not, you know, it's something.

Tayla: 34:06

They're just a thing.

Sam: 34:07

Yeah, it's just a thing, yeah.

Carlie: 34:09

Right, and I work with so many Christians who are adults that are now trying to repair and relearn all of the negative messages that they got about sex growing up and trying to, to you know, untangle sex from guilt and shame, and and because that their first messages about sex were about bodies, were had messages of guilt and shame intertwined. And so I love. I love that for the next generation they can start from a better place so they don't. They don't get to adulthood and need to rebuild everything.

Tayla: 34:52

Yeah, no, I love that too, but that kind of kind of goes. So that's definitely. Your niche is obviously sex education in general, but Christian sex education. So what are some other challenges that you face? Teaching Christians or or teaching Christian sex education, yeah Well.

Carlie: 35:14

I think just a simple one is that talking this openly about sex and bodies and all the things is new, and so it's uncomfortable for a lot of people. Even even those who understand that it's important and want to talk more openly about sex in their relationships and with their children, it's still often really hard for them to do so because it's new. So that's a big challenge is just helping people to get to the point where they're able to talk about it and and interact with the subject in new ways. Of course, another one that you touched on earlier in the Christian space is things like sexual orientation and gender identity are really complicated in well, not just Christian spheres, but in religions, religious spheres in general, and so being a sex educator who is both Christian and a researcher is sometimes complicated.

Carlie: 36:18

It's difficult to navigate the space, that space, because a lot of religious people feel really strongly that I shouldn't be discussing those kinds of things and that I certainly shouldn't be educating about them. You know like, yeah, I shouldn't be contributing, you know, and and that's really difficult for me because I mean on a personal level, it's really discouraging because the way that the LGBTQ plus community is treated by a lot of Christians is still really discouraging to me. But also as a researcher, it's discouraging because I'm a professional in my field and not only a Christian who cares about this topic right. So I feel like it's my duty as a professional to offer fair and balanced sex education, and the pushback for doing so is heavy for me. I'm not a naturally thick skinned person, nor have I been able to develop one, so so it is. It is discouraging to me to see the response to that kind of education, so that's hard.

Tayla: 37:50

I do want to ask a little bit more about that, because allyship and support for that community is and has become. The older I get so much more important to me year after year and the more I realize and the more loved ones that I know that are in that community. I just feel so fiercely about that. I just do wonder like how, how to educate not only Christian children but children in general in a way that is healthy but that kind of includes I don't know what it would be like a call out to like, because a good proportion of those kids will be a member of that community.

Tayla: 38:32

How do you? How do you do that? Because, again, like we, I don't know what where my kids will end, like I literally don't know they could be in that community. How do you just do? Nor, how do you include that in comprehensive sex education, I guess?

Carlie: 38:49

Well, this is? This is a tricky thing to answer, partly because a lot of the research about sex education, when it comes to topics like gender identity and sexual orientation, that research is new, like decades old, as opposed to centuries old, like most of the research in this country is and so there's not as many best practices, if that makes sense. Experts in the field don't agree on how to teach these kinds of things like they would on other topics, so that's a tricky part. But one thing that I would say, and that I encourage parents to do, is try to approach sex education with your child as if they might be part of the LGBTQ plus community or might be Sunday. I think that that helps us to approach it with a lot more empathy, regardless of well, not even regardless of, but including our moral beliefs, whatever they are. I think that coming coming to these conversations with an understanding that our child might, in the future, or might currently, belong to the LGBTQ plus community, it just helps us to approach the conversations differently. So, looking at, looking at national data I actually put this in the in the parents guidebook, but we have data from, like the Gallup poll I think the most recent one we have is from 2021. They have generational data on who belongs to the LGBTQ plus community and obviously there are some factors like whether or not people feel comfortable being out in that community and that is different by generation. But the 2021 Gallup survey showed that 21% of Gen Z years belong to the LGBTQ plus community. So it's incredibly likely that we will have, like that, we will all have a child, at least you know, in that community and knowing that you just this topic is so tender to me, like so close to my heart.

Carlie: 41:23

If I knew, for example, that my son was I mean, he's five months, so right but it.

Carlie: 41:32

But if I knew that he was going to be gay, for example, I would want him to know how I felt about that from a young age. Like not only that, I would want him to know that, like I recognize that he might not be attracted to women and and that we can talk about that and that talking about it is okay, like so, within the Christian space. This is such a complicated topic, so I realized that I'm kind of rambling because I care about it so much. I'm so sorry, but no ramble away within the Christian space, so many I mean I have yet to hear from someone in the LGBTQ plus community who grew up Christian, who didn't feel from a very young age that they had to hide it and that they were a terrible person for what they were experiencing. And that is so, so unfair and so detrimental, especially at a young age. But if we were teaching our kids as if they might belong to that community, I think we would do a much better job. I really do.

Tayla: 42:47

I agree, I agree, and it's something I have thought a lot about, like from a child perspective, of like if I, if I, were a part of that community, how would I like to be spoken to or taught? But I'm still just navigating like how, how to address it and I think you know, I mean I have done, we've done like small things, like when Sam and I have been talking about oh yeah, one day I'll his husband and I'll be like or why you know, and kind of just say that and I don't know if I don't think that's probably enough, but I do think just even having those possibilities like be possible in the home could probably help, like if Ella ended up being gay or Max ended up being gay, and just knowing that, like we know, I think, just being seen, yeah like, yes, like this is?

Tayla: 43:42

this is rooted in reality.

Carlie: 43:44

You know, I don't know totally and and I I also think that for the most part within Christian, in Christian homes, which obviously that's my focus. So I talked about it a lot but we focus primarily on sexual morals. So we discuss morals around sexuality or our family values around sexuality, but we don't talk about sex and sexuality themselves, only the morals. That's kind of the trend, right, and I think that when it comes to these issues specifically, we can. We can do both, like if you have really strong moral feelings about any of these topics, you can communicate those to your children. That's your prerogative right, whichever way they go.

Carlie: 44:38

But you can also say, like, offer them healthy comprehension. So like if they see, even even at Ella's age, like if she sees a gay couple or like here's the word, the word transgender at some point at school, in a few years or something, and asks you what it is, you can offer her a matter of fact answer and, if you'd like, also teach morals. But but we can't leave out the like my friend said that he's gay. What does that mean? That means that he has crushes on boys instead of girls. Like, just a matter of fact, like it doesn't have to be. You don't have to go into. This is what we believe about gay people, right, if that's not like first, definitely before they understand.

Tayla: 45:33

Yeah right.

Carlie: 45:35

But I mean they're developing their understanding of these things, their comprehension, quite a bit earlier than they're internalizing moral issues.

Tayla: 45:46

So we can, we can start with comprehension for sure yeah, I think that's a great great call out of just like you can teach. Yeah, everything you're saying just makes a lot of sense on. I think we do kind of sometimes put these things into a full psychotomy of it's this or that yeah and we could be, and people totally totally and I do think.

Carlie: 46:11

I do think that has a heterosexual cis woman. It is my responsibility to do all that I can to understand the experiences of the LGBTQ plus community. I don't know where I landed on that I got lost but I think that it's my responsibility to to try and learn all that I can and from a religious perspective, like I think that it's also my responsibility to really wrestle with some of the teachings that we heard growing up about things that are sinful or not okay, and really see if those align with my values, like I. I think I will say it was so easy and I don't know if this is something that you even want to go into the podcast, so feel free to cut this out, if you don't want to.

Carlie: 47:11

But it was so easy as a teenager to accept the message that homosexuality is a sin, for example, like as a 13, 14, 15 year old.

Carlie: 47:24

Like, okay, that is a sin because I didn't have any out friends.

Carlie: 47:31

Of course I had friends who weren't out yet because I lived in weezer, idaho and it wasn't a safe place, who I now know right, belong to the LGBTQ plus community, but but at that point it's easier to believe those kinds of things until until you actually see it up close and you have family members and friends who are in loving, beautiful, healthy homosexual relationships, for example, like there are so many different things but and you see all of the like I think a lot about the fruits of the spirit versus like we see all of those things in these relationships and it's like it really has required a lot of wrestling for myself to realize that the the messages that I heard growing up don't align with my understanding of God's way and don't align with who I want to be as a person.

Carlie: 48:37

But it's easier not to wrestle like. It's easier to just say nope, like it's all a sin, and talking about it as a sin and doing it as a sin and we're not. We're not gonna wrestle with these issues. We have to do better. We have if we're not part of the LGBTQ plus community. I think we owe it to those who are to engage in the wrestle, especially those of us who who are religious or who grew up religious, with a lot of these messages.

Tayla: 49:08

Yeah, I, as you were speaking and you have spoken to this a bit as well it's just, I do feel like it's such a Christian, as in Christ-like thing to just see and accept people even if they don't look like, sound like, act like you do. That's literally what Christ spent his life doing and there wasn't really much exception, from what I can tell in my research to to that treatment of people and like truly just going out of, not only just like doing it, but going out of his way to do that for people. So I feel like it is such a Christian act to do exactly what you're recommending to do, which is to truly understand this experience that is different from from your own.

Carlie: 49:52

I took that so off topic of what to teach kids. It was important. We've just been in the throes of this conversation on my Instagram the last few days and it's just. It's such a a messy topic in Christian spaces and it has way less empathy, way less understanding than it warrants.

Tayla: 50:17

Yeah, I agree. No, I think it was an important direction to go. Well, I feel like we could talk to you literally forever, but I kind of to kind of a wrap at least, maybe, maybe, part one.

Sam: 50:30

We're going to need to part two, by the way, we're going to have to.

Tayla: 50:33

we'll have to wrap like part one in a boat. I want to ask Sam as well, Each of you, what is kind of your hope for the future of sex education?

Carlie: 50:43

Sam, I want to hear your answer first.

Sam: 50:45

The future hope of sex education. Yeah, so I guess I'm trying to be the change that I want to see.

Carlie: 50:52

So that change.

Sam: 50:56

So again, I have nothing but love and respect and gratitude for my parents, but I think it would have been good to have had some more in-depth sex education. I was very fortunate I didn't have any traumatic experiences, but again, I know a lot of people do. So, yeah, I'd like parents to be. You know, one of the things that you said was that Resnei wrote me is just how you can. Just it doesn't have to be a moral discussion, it can literally just be a factual discussion and I'd love for all parents to feel comfortable to have these factual discussions and it's not something that you're uncomfortable with or, you know, having any negative connotations with.

Sam: 51:46

I'd love to be able to pass it on to my kids and so on, and I'd love if anyone you know this is this podcast. Would you know if they haven't thought about it or they are thinking about it would be to go that direction. And then for the you know, I know it's a touchy subject of who gets to teach your kids sex education. So, first of all, it starts on the home, like that, awesome. And then, second, you know there has to be some sort of public education, because it is, it can become a, it is a public health problem.

Sam: 52:19

It's a, you know, and not just in terms of like SEDs and stuff, but in terms of unwavering pregnancies, you know they're not being consent. So for me there has to be some level of sex education on at the school level and that we all are a little bit more chill about it, because kids, you know, like Carlie, like you talked about, you kind of find out from your friends anyways and you know, maybe that's not always the best source about what sex is like. It's not, you know, making out Sticking your tongue in someone else's mouth. Yeah, and you know, obviously everyone still has the ability to then have some sort of moral teachings to their kids about those things. But there definitely needs to be factual education at just that level. And then I mean there's a whole another Christian level to this or religious level to this, where you know about what sex is, you know what good sex is and what it's actually. You know what it looks like in a healthy relationship. What does healthy sex actually look like?

Sam: 53:24

I think people should be able to go into a marriage with their eyes open to that and it less it be less about. You know, this is going to sound really weird. One of the weird things I hear in religion is like oh, this is an act between you, your partner and God. And I'm just like, wow, that's just weird, like that. That to me, was just one of the weirdest things to ever hear, and it definitely isn't to me. It's communication with your partner and I just feel that that's what you know. Just like we've learned how to communicate in so many other ways, everyone should learn how to communicate in that way as well. Okay, anyways, I feel comfortable.

Tayla: 54:01

We didn't even get into like good stuff we didn't even get into, like public education. Maybe that can be a part of part two. We have to continue because I feel like it is important, but great. So how about you, Carlie? What's your, your hope for the future of sex education?

Carlie: 54:20

Well, I know this is cliche to say, but I actually do agree with everything that Sam said. I think that those are great hopes for sex education. I would just add that one of my great hopes for sex ed, both in the home and in public settings, is that we can get to a point where it's shame free, especially in religious settings. We have traditionally leaned really really heavily into guilt and shame as motivators for certain sexual behaviors, and that's really detrimental long term. We actually have quite a bit of research on the long term effects of religious shame on healthy sexual relationships, and I mean that's not the only reason that we want it to be shame free, but it's part of it. I think a big part of achieving shame free sex education is focusing a lot more on what healthy sexual relationships look like, like Sam was saying, as opposed to just what to avoid, which is what we often get in school too. Sam, you talked about learning about all the STDs that you could get if you had sex.

Sam: 55:39

I can still see those. Oh stop, I don't know why. It's just horrific.

Carlie: 55:43

And while that is important information to have, the approach is often look at all the bad things that can happen to you, so don't do it. Instead of, these are the really good parts of sex. This is how to have good, healthy, safe sex. This is how to prevent pregnancy. This is how sex can feel in a healthy, happy relationship. And also these are some things that you need to watch out for, stds being just one right, a lack of consent is a big one, but we lean so heavily into unhealthy sexual behaviors or unhealthy sexuality that we kind of skip over all the healthy sexuality stuff, and I'd love to see that be the most prevalent part of sex education, with also warnings for unhealthy as well.

Tayla: 56:41

Oh, I love that, and if there's anything that I have learned growing into this space myself, is just that knowing what to avoid is not the same as having a good sexual relationship. It's not and that can affect so much about your relationship and about your experience just as a human being.

Sam: 57:03

So I love that.

Tayla: 57:06

It has been a pleasure to have you. It's truly. I'm devastated. We have to stop. We need to stop, but we'll have to have you on again and we will bring cheese.

Carlie: 57:18

Yeah, cheese and cracker podcast Sounds great, I love it Thanks for listening to the Babe.

Sam: 57:22

We'll see you next time.

Carlie: 57:23

Bye, bye, bye.

Tayla: 57:26

Thanks for listening to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam: 57:30

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