Sports | with Kelsey and Zachary Harmer

What does it take to make it in the competitive world of college sports? Guests Kelsey and Zach open up about their personal sporting history - from playing Division 1 soccer  to embracing the thrill of skiing and running - and the lessons they've learnt on the pitch and beyond. Join us, your hosts Sam and Tayla, as we share our own sports backgrounds, discussing everything from rugby, soccer, cricket, and tennis to the camaraderie fostered through team sports. 

As we navigate the winding path of our sporting journey, we also examine the college recruiting process and the inherent politics of sports. How do individual and team sports shape our lives? Crucial questions about inequality, compensation, and representation in sports crop up as we compare men's and women's soccer, discussing not just the skill level but also the entertainment value they provide. We dive into the exciting growth of women's professional sports and the opportunities now available for young girls aspiring to be soccer players.

End your day on a thought-provoking note as we chip away at the critical issue of fair representation in sports and its societal importance. We delve into the disparities in resources and marketing between men's and women's sports, exploring how to strike a balance between fairness and profitability. The topic of compensating college athletes sparks an engaging debate, with a look at the potential impacts and drawbacks. As we reminisce about our sports experiences and share personal regrets, we hope to leave you inspired and more informed about the world of sports. Tune in for an episode teeming with insights, laughter, exciting revelations, and shared experiences.

Transcript

Sam: 0:10

Welcome to Babe. What do you know about the podcast with your favorite husband and wife duo, Sam?

Tayla: 0:16

and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.

Sam: 0:24

Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.

Tayla: 0:32

Speaking of music, favorite part of the Beyonce concert?

Kelsey: 0:36

I don't even know If there is one. I liked her songs like One Plus One. I Care when she sang my favorite songs, obviously would be my favorite part.

Tayla: 0:48

I really liked when Blue Ivy came out.

Kelsey: 0:52

She actually did do so good.

Tayla: 0:54

She did so intimidating, but she looked just like her mom. Yeah, you guys didn't get to come. What did you spend the weekend?

Sam: 1:02

doing, having fun with the kids. Having fun with the kids.

Tayla: 1:08

Mike.

Sam: 1:10

We went to the river, we watched TV, went to the car wash.

Zachary: 1:17

McDonald's Everything you need.

Tayla: 1:20

Very fun and easy.

Zachary: 1:23

What about you? I hang out with my cousins. They all just got in town from a bunch of different places. They're going to be like you. They literally got in town like the day before you guys left. Maybe it was the day you left.

Tayla: 1:35

It was the day.

Zachary: 1:36

It just worked out.

Tayla: 1:38

I saw you the next day and you looked more tired than Kelsey and I did.

Zachary: 1:40

Yeah, we were so very late.

Tayla: 1:44

Nice, Well, you guys are hearing some extra voices in this episode. We have Kelsey, my sister, and Zach, her husband. Slash our brother-in-law with us. Why don't you guys give yourselves a little intro? Wow.

Kelsey: 2:01

My name is Kelsey. As Tayla said, I like anything active. I like sports. I'm in nursing school right now. It was like I got married a year and a bit ago, last May, considering the topic for today.

Tayla: 2:20

why don't you give us a little more of your sports history?

Kelsey: 2:22

Yeah, I played D1 soccer at Utah State University. I played defense midfield forward and then defense again. I played everywhere. I actually at one point was back up goalie. That was awesome.

Tayla: 2:38

Nice and before that you have a long.

Kelsey: 2:44

I played softball basketball. I've played some volleyball. I've played my high school career, my club team. We made it to the national finals and we lost by one, I think, in Texas. Yeah, it was crazy.

Tayla: 3:02

You did lose by one. Yeah, it was devastating.

Kelsey: 3:04

I had a pulled hamstring and a pulled quad. I was trying to run around. It was just tough. I was late of the year for the State of Utah in I don't know 2017. And yeah, that's kind of that's you, that's me, Alright, Zach.

Zachary: 3:24

Yeah, I'm just gonna just here with Kelsey because I don't have an impressive sports background like that. But, my families love sports. That was like religion in our house. We played everything football, basketball, soccer Skied since forever. Yeah, I don't know, I kind of did it all. Right now I'm super into skiing and why oh running biking? Yeah, true running. I ran my first marathon last year. Woo woo Dang. Yeah, that was cool.

Kelsey: 4:00

Training for your second.

Zachary: 4:02

Training for my second yeah, this one's much further out. So that's nice. I have like five months this time.

Tayla: 4:06

Nice.

Zachary: 4:08

Yeah, I just got into biking, which has been super fun. Cycling, yeah, cycling, yeah.

Tayla: 4:12

I guess that was my point Motorbike.

Zachary: 4:15

Yeah, yeah, and there's dirt biking and mountain biking and stuff so like road biking.

Tayla: 4:23

Yeah.

Zachary: 4:23

Cycling, Cool yeah. So I just like to do it all. My family does it all.

Kelsey: 4:29

OK, Sam.

Sam: 4:31

Sports.

Kelsey: 4:31

Yeah.

Sam: 4:32

Man, I haven't played sports in a long time, so this is all from memory, like a that works.

Zachary: 4:39

I know, but you have an impressive NBA fantasy team.

Sam: 4:44

Oh yeah, no, I'm really good at fantasy sports, but no, I played sports growing up Rugby, soccer, cricket, tennis, field hockey, just kind of like and so after you just have compulsory sports, so in high school you have to play sports, and then I just kind of got into like a rotation of them and then I loved going to the beach every weekend with my brother, so we'd go surfing. That was pretty much it.

Tayla: 5:10

Nice.

Zachary: 5:10

Can I ask a quick question though? Yeah, when we were with the Bricknalls, they were telling us about this too.

Kelsey: 5:19

So my mom's side of the family? Oh yes, Bricknalls, you know, and them.

Zachary: 5:22

Yeah, shout out a few years of listening, but they were talking about that too. Did you have to play one sport or a bunch of sports? So what was the Every semester.

Sam: 5:31

So well, I don't know, it wasn't called a semester it was called term. Yeah, there'd be a different sport.

Zachary: 5:36

So you could choose what you did.

Sam: 5:38

One sport per each term. Yeah, so, like usually, there was like a rugby and hockey where combined and some other ones. I think they're volleyball overlapped, so you just had to do one. But cricket and rugby were different seasons.

Kelsey: 5:50

Swimming Did you do swimming? Yeah, everyone has to swim.

Sam: 5:53

So, athletics, everyone does all year round.

Tayla: 5:55

So yeah, so like field sports, like track.

Sam: 5:59

Literally like Harry Potter Everyone.

Tayla: 6:01

Yeah, we have houses At the school, we were the Swan House, yeah.

Sam: 6:05

At Ridgeville. What color Yellow? Oh trash I just need that no.

Tayla: 6:09

No shut up.

Kelsey: 6:10

Can I have an embarrassing story about that?

Tayla: 6:12

Yes, you do, I will get to that. But yeah, and then. So you play like in between the houses in your own school, and then you also play like against other schools as well. Oh, that's wonderful.

Zachary: 6:22

Interesting.

Tayla: 6:23

So that's kind of, I think, how you get to the best, so whoever is the best from the schools, depending on what house and what event then goes to do against other schools.

Kelsey: 6:33

So it's not really like tryouts because it's a big deal, but it's kind of an interesting way of yeah, you're going to see everyone's talents, you're going to always find the best. I guess that makes sense.

Tayla: 6:43

All right, so I'm going to do my intro and then I will. You don't want to show your sports? Oh, I guess I should. I was kind of like Sam and Zach.

Tayla: 6:51

I played sports all growing up. I remember when I was in primary school, specifically on Tuesdays, it was crazy. I would go to school, I would go straight to netball practice, I would go from netball practice to judo practice, straight from judo to ballet and then straight from ballet to my youth group. So that day was like crazy. But I did everything I played.

Tayla: 7:14

I was the only girl on the cricket team. I didn't play for very long. I think I played one season, but if you wanted to play, that's where you had to play. There was one girl on the soccer team. That was pretty badass, but soccer wasn't really a female sport at all unless you wanted to play on the boys team. So I never grew up playing soccer. So when Kelsey started playing soccer I was like oh dang, I don't know anything about it. I became a fan. I wish I would have been able to play, but I guess my main sports were softball and basketball. I was not very good at anything in basketball except for defense, but I was very, very good at that one thing, good enough to get on a team at school somehow. But they would pretty much just stick me on someone.

Zachary: 8:00

Female Dennis Rodman.

Kelsey: 8:01

Yeah, I didn't believe that, not in my house.

Tayla: 8:04

Is that the same guy?

Kelsey: 8:05

No, dennis Rodman's the guy with the crazy hair.

Tayla: 8:08

Yeah, ok, why aren't you a neighbor to Dennis Rodman, sam? Oh yeah, dennis Rodman was your upstairs neighbor in Miami, anyway, yeah, so I just played everything and everything. I will talk about this in a minute. But I didn't really get to progress much outside of just school and sports and stuff, just because how sports works in the United States is so different from how it worked in South Africa. We just didn't know. Fortunately we figured it out by the time Kelsey came around. But let me do my intro.

Tayla: 8:38

So sports is a realm where passion, competition and athleticism collide. From the roar of the crowd to the thrill of victory. Sports have captivated us for literally centuries. But today we'll be talking about sports, with a slight focus on women's sports and college sports. Women's sports have been gaining tremendous momentum in stuff. Once you start slaving, you can't stop. In recent years. Female athletes are breaking barriers, shattering records and inspiring generations to come. In fact, according to a study, women's sports viewership has increased by 84% since 2014, showcasing the growing interest and support for incredible athletes. But it's not just about the professionals. College sports also have their own unique charm and fervor, I would say particularly here in the States. Universities across the nation and around the world boast passionate fan bases, rivalries that span generations and a breeding ground for future sports stars. The NCAA that's redundant. The NCAA how do people say it?

Tayla: 9:40

Either way I'm saying the NCAA estimates that over 480,000 student athletes participate in college sports in the US, showcasing their dedication and talent on field, court and track. However, the world of sports is not without its challenges. Women's sports have historically faced disparities in funding, media coverage and recognition, but, the times returning, organizations and individuals are working tirelessly to level the playing field, navigating a kind of a complicated number of questions on what equality looks like, et cetera, et cetera, but really we want just everybody to have the equal opportunity to shine and do what they love in sports. So, babe, honorary babes, what do you know about sports?

Sam: 10:23

Yeah, Zach, tell us why women, why you think women shouldn't have equal rights to sports.

Zachary: 10:30

That's a good point. I know I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Tayla: 10:33

I'm just kidding.

Zachary: 10:36

So the real awkward laugh.

Tayla: 10:38

So, kelsey, as a former college female athlete, what kind of challenges did you face in pursuing your sport at the collegiate level, if any, and how did it shape your overall experience?

Kelsey: 10:52

Well, it's a lot different now, like in 2023, versus when I was in the process of recruiting for college soccer in 2015, 2016, 2014, that kind of area. So now there's a bunch of rules, the NCAA you can't talk to girls trying to play soccer until their junior year, I think, and before it was very frequent for people to get recruited as freshmen, which I think is a really great transition. That they did, Because I found a lot of girls peaked at freshman year, high school and then they didn't get much better after that. I don't know if that's because there's a lot to that. I don't know if that's because they had a spot already, so they didn't have to fight to get better anymore or just puberty hit sooner than other people and they kind of met that. But for me, what was the question?

Tayla: 11:46

What barriers did you face trying to get into college sports and how did it? How did the barrier shape your experience, if any?

Kelsey: 11:54

There's a couple. I think politics play a lot into college sports and who you know definitely makes a difference and luckily my club coach, he knew people. Well, he knew people. But also your coach matters a lot Because you go to tournaments. So we would go to a whole bunch of different tournaments like nationally Presence Cup, surf's Cup, all these things, and college coaches. You send them emails and they respond or just come and then they have your roster and they're just watching Only a couple of times they can come see each team within the year and so they can only talk to the coach for a long time because you're too young and so all the information gets relayed through the coaches.

Tayla: 12:38

That could affect a lot, depending on your coach.

Kelsey: 12:40

Yeah, so if your coach likes you and he's advocating for you, you're more likely to get in. So luckily, my coach did advocate for me a lot.

Tayla: 12:47

I feel like if they are biased towards a certain university, they could maybe keep you from different opportunities to what they would choose.

Kelsey: 12:55

Well, yeah, because they're going to speak for you and they might not know exactly where you're at.

Tayla: 12:59

Yeah, or what they relay to you might not be the most accurate.

Kelsey: 13:02

Exactly so there's stuff like that. And going into soccer. I only started playing real competitive soccer at the Premier 1 level, which is the highest in club. I think in eighth grade I officially joined the team. That's really late because recruitment starts freshman year and I was severely much worse than everyone else. I had grit. I've always just had a fire of I will literally sacrifice my body before you get past me. But skill level and smarts was not there, and so my coach is really good at developing that. But having that disadvantage was really hard because a lot of the girls got recruited before me. I was one of the last in my recruitment class to get recruited.

Tayla: 13:47

And they had been on teams like this all the time.

Kelsey: 13:49

Yeah, their whole life They've been on these teams that have been competing at the top. Coaches are aware of them, that kind of thing. In fact, my college coach that I did go to my freshman year we played against a different club team it was like our rival team and she came and my coach asked what she thought about me and she said she won't play on my team, she's not good enough. And a year later I committed to that and she offered me a full ride. So Scholarship, yeah full ride.

Zachary: 14:16

scholarship to play at that school, nice.

Kelsey: 14:19

So I kind of just I think the barriers were just politicalness. Just if you don't know the system you're not going to do very well, and then also just like opportunity, if you make the right team that does well and you get to play Because there's good girls that didn't get to play as much just because it just didn't work with the team. So just kind of that kind of stuff.

Tayla: 14:39

OK. So, Zach, you kind of grew up participating a lot in team sports but a lot in individual sports, way more than Kelsey, certainly, and probably me and maybe Sam. No, you did a bit more individual stuff. But I'll ask Sam the same question too. But how do you think the dynamics differ between team sports and individual sports, both in terms of like competition and also like personal development? How do you think they're different?

Zachary: 15:07

Yeah, so, interestingly enough, I actually growing up I did mostly team sports and then it was like in the past couple years that I've really gotten into personal sports, but I did. I guess one thing I was pretty passionate about most of my life was skiing and that's like I guess it's not competitive at least I didn't do it competitively but that is, I guess, more a personal sport. But, yeah, I would say that that's like been something that's kind of interesting. I've been thinking about a lot is like how team sports affected me growing up and my relationship with, like personal sports now and it's something me and Kelsey have talked about a lot actually, because Kelsey had obviously really good experiences with team sports and I had fine experiences with team sports.

Zachary: 15:59

But honestly, taking partially from my own experiences watching I'm sure we'll get into this but like how Kelsey's, like last year or so playing college doctor went and like a couple other people in my like close personal life that I just watch, there's like a lot of complications with team sports and like Kelsey was saying how people get recruited, why they get recruited, what opportunities people have and things like that. Yeah, it's really political and that's and there's a couple other things to that and I think that you know there's a we talk about this a lot, kelsey and I like there's a ton of benefits to team sports, but then there's things like politics where if you're not on the right side of it, it's like it's really tough, I feel like, because you can do your part and still have it be like very difficult, whereas I feel like less so in personal sports, if you kind of dedicate yourself to something and just go for it, like you don't have to rely as much on a team right or other people, and there's pros and cons to that right.

Zachary: 17:07

Like like you're missing out on the team aspect, which is like obviously I think a really important thing and Kelsey talks about that a lot like like that does teach you a lot growing up, I think, how to work with other people and stuff like that, like how to reach a goal together, all that stuff. But it is also difficult because sometimes you can be held back by a couple of things out of your control, right. So that's kind of in my experience the past couple years is I've really enjoyed like personal sports because I can just like pick something up and just go and do it and like there's nothing like I don't know if holding me back is the right word, but right, like I can kind of just I can kind of do what I want with it, right.

Tayla: 17:45

I can you can have a lot more control over how it goes Exactly, yeah like with the marathon.

Zachary: 17:50

I just kind of like decided I was like gonna do that and I was like I don't know if I can do this, but like I'm gonna figure it out, and it was just like on me. I wasn't like relying on anyone else or anything like that for better or for worse, and it just kind of it's kind of been awesome. So like I really like that aspect of it lately. But I might take advantage something Kelsey and I talked about specifically with team sports. I might take advantage of what I did learn that I might not notice now having grown up in a lot of team sports, so Okay, what about you?

Tayla: 18:19

Sam thoughts on that.

Sam: 18:20

Thoughts on team sports versus individual. So I never did sports really here in the United States and sports when I grew up in South Africa were mainly just to be social. You know, for school it wasn't ever thought of as like a real career that you make a lot of money doing. Because even at the time in South Africa even the people that played at a national level there wasn't really like money or anything in it.

Tayla: 18:47

Yeah, my mom actually was a national athlete and never got paid for it.

Sam: 18:51

Yeah, so for me, like the team, sports has always been, you know, something that's social, something that's fun, and I still treat sports the same way. Only found out you could have a career doing sports when I was like 22.

Sam: 19:07

Like that's literally when I like learned all about career team sports in the United States, so I never even thought of it that way. So in terms of individual sports versus team, it all kind of feels the same. I'm just really excited to have like individual sports to do now, like golf, because I kind of miss just being able to push yourself, being able to, you know, go outside, have fun, be physical. You know I love that.

Tayla: 19:31

Yeah, I didn't really do. I did just the normal track and field like you had to, but that felt more like teamy as well, because you're on a I don't know.

Kelsey: 19:42

It's an individual but a team sport. It's weird.

Tayla: 19:44

Yeah, it's individual but a team sport. That's what she said. She's not close to the mic, noob. Anyway, for me I pretty much only did team sports and I would say that like team sports kind of saved my life in a way.

Tayla: 19:57

When I moved here to the States I was very lonely and very sad and really struggled to make friends. And I had a couple that you know were really nice, but it was actually like when I joined a sports team in high school and it was basketball, I think to start, yeah, that I met, like my best friend, jackie Robary, and we weren't best friends when we met but once we started, kind of I feel like only the team dynamic would have pulled us together and did pull us together and then we did and it was just like that. For, like the rest, the rest is history essentially and I made not just with her but the rest of my team as well. They were just people that maybe wouldn't give me the time of day or that I wouldn't give the time of day, but it gave me like a place and a home, whether I felt I deserved to be there or not. I didn't even know what a foul was when I made the team, like I just knew how to not let people have the ball and that was it. So for me, it definitely was like life changing, life saving. In fact, my other best friend that I made actually same thing. We played sports together and that's how we became friends. So for me, that's really what I think of when I think of teams.

Tayla: 21:11

And yeah, but I would say, as I get older and you're not practicing together the same way and you're just like kind of picking up a slow pitch game or something, even though you're playing on a team. Or when I play on a team, it feels more individual because we don't have the time to bond as a team. Like I just got to focus on my own stuff and I kind of like that too, actually, so I don't have much exposure to it, but yeah, so where do I want to go with this? Okay, so I know that we've talked a little bit about there's a lot of talk in not only the political climate, just in general about women's professional sports versus men's, slash with men's and compensation and coverage and all this stuff, and I just kind of want to know your initial thoughts to do with that topic on, for example.

Tayla: 22:06

Maybe one easy one is just like the national women's soccer team, they are like world champions. Obviously not this year, everyone just blinked, but obviously they've been like dominating for years now and there was a huge thing of like why are we getting so much less money than the men's team? And what the hell does the men's team do which they didn't do much, don't do much. So yeah, just initial thoughts on that.

Kelsey: 22:33

So I think a lot of things that people forget about. Women's sports, especially in the professional realm, is like women's professional soccer in the US has only been around as a league for 10 years.

Tayla: 22:46

Where, if you look at the men's team?

Kelsey: 22:47

I don't even know, but it's for sure more than half. I don't know. We should look it up. So I think a lot of people don't realize that, like, as far as we've come, we haven't had the opportunity to grow it and to grow the sport and to learn how to adapt it and to have a focus on, like, teaching girls the actual skills needed to be higher. I even watch now, I look at girls that are like 12 and like 14 and playing soccer and their skill level was way higher than mine, just because the sport's growing so much.

Kelsey: 23:20

And so I think a lot of people are like, oh, it's not even close to where like men's are and like the viewership and stuff, but it's because it needs time to grow to get that. And I think this last world cup, women's world cup, shows that I think we're seeing because I think stereotypically, people think that sports are for men. But I think by seeing like there was over, I think, 2 billion people that watched the last world cup, I think we're seeing that there's this need that women have had for sports. It hasn't been like fulfilled, satisfied, satisfied, and now women are being able to access this part of like their lives and the world and that kind of thing and have like representation in it. So you see it grow and it's growing very exponentially fast. And I think it's just people sometimes forget that there's a huge gap in how long men's professional sports have been around and women's professional sports have been around, so it's just developing.

Tayla: 24:20

Yeah, I do think there's a missed opportunity to develop to the same level. What are your thoughts, guys?

Zachary: 24:29

So I just looked it up the men's soccer league, the MLS, technically the major league soccer, started in 1993. But there's the National Soccer League, which is the same thing, just a different name, I guess. I don't know specific differences, but yeah, that was in 1968.

Tayla: 24:44

So at least until then, unless there's another league before that, what a different name, but definitely like a half a century.

Zachary: 24:50

Yeah of growth and stuff. Yeah, and something interesting that I grew up, soccer was kind of my thing. Growing up, I played a lot of sports. I played basketball, rugby and soccer and stuff, but soccer was my primary sport far and away. That's like what I did. And so I watched hundreds and hundreds of hours of soccer. And it was funny this past year what was that? Six months ago, we watched the WSL.

Kelsey: 25:21

No, no WNSL, I don't even know. I think there's the thing I should know.

Zachary: 25:27

The WSL.

Sam: 25:28

But I know it's not that because that's the world surf league, and I used to follow that too, OK.

Zachary: 25:35

There's another acronym in there or there's another letter in there, but we watched the final six months ago or whenever. That was eight months ago or something and it was probably six months ago, but it was the first time I'd ever seen women's soccer on TV, which was kind of interesting for me to think about. And now, being married to Kelsey, realizing that she had a real chance at a career in that, and this is the first time I'd ever seen it on TV, which was pretty interesting. And so I've been thinking about why that is kind of and some of these questions, especially having watched so much soccer growing up.

Zachary: 26:12

And, yes, something, especially with this World Cup too, that's kind of interesting about soccer specifically is that there's no, at least from my point of view, there's no real entertainment difference between the men and the women, whereas some specific sports that actually matters. So you have things like women's gymnastics that's a lot more popular than men's Because of body type, nba, where NBA, wnba, nba is a lot more popular, I would say again, because of body type. But soccer is something where the men are statistically faster and stronger, but you can't tell. Entertainment-wise it's the same Going from. Some people might disagree, but from my perspective, it was someone who's watched quite a bit of soccer, especially this past World Cup. Brazil and the women's Spain was good, well, yeah, but Brazil was so entertaining.

Zachary: 27:11

So from an entertainment standpoint, which is where they make money, I think, no-transcript. There's a ton of room Like they've grown a lot the women's soccer but there's so much more room to grow there, and so I think it'll be interesting to watch over the next. I don't know what do you think? 10 years Like it'll be quick.

Kelsey: 27:31

Even in the last five years it's like like when we we didn't even plan to watch the final, it would be just the watching it pop down like oh cool, and it was a full sold out stadium. I know in like Barcelona, the women's club teams there sold out like 80,000 or maybe 100,000 person. Like stadium, like it's growing so much and I think what Zach's trying to say is from the skill level, it's like not really different, it's just speed, but you can't tell.

Tayla: 27:59

It's just yeah different.

Kelsey: 28:00

They look fast compared to other girls. You know what I mean.

Zachary: 28:04

And just one tiny thought on that like there might be a small skill difference still but I think that is contributed to more of what you're saying. They just have had such a little time to grow, where it's not a matter of like they can't, it's just the space and the competition hasn't like driven them to that point yet, right, so you have someone like Messier, neymar, like these freaks of nature who, like, after 50 years of like extreme competition in Argentina and Brazil, where they're from, and then they're kind of born out of this, like this culture Right.

Tayla: 28:40

Well, also because boys play soccer and played soccer where they're from. There are so many like probably women like them that just never found soccer or soccer never found them, that we're just missed, absolutely yeah.

Zachary: 28:53

And that's what I think. I think the, at least I think the contribution to the skill difference is just that Right, we're kind of waiting for the women more or less to feel like a better term catch up. Right, like there's been such a short period of time where, like actually one of my really good friends I put soccer with his sister played on Utah's pro team back when Utah, like the first couple years, the Royals. The Royals yeah, they're coming back.

Kelsey: 29:19

Yeah, they are, which is exciting.

Zachary: 29:22

But he was telling us how they're like setting up chairs and stuff and he's like it's, it wasn't even like a thing. You know what I mean and now to have like in the US, stadiums of 40,000 people.

Kelsey: 29:31

Yeah, they still don't get them. I have a friend who I played college with and she played for the Houston. I want to say Dash, I don't know why I can't. Is that wrong? What sport is that? Anyway, I'm pretty sure she's actually played for that and she's like the facilities at our university were better than her professional facilities. But I do think women's soccer also gives a little different, and why it's entertaining, despite skill level, because I think women have a little more grit in the game. You see little less.

Tayla: 30:00

Compared to men.

Kelsey: 30:02

Yeah, which is just a skill thing and just how the culture of the sports like grown. But you do see like women get like tackled and just like keep running or Okay, I'm curious about that.

Zachary: 30:11

Actually, do you think that, as skill level, reaches the same as men? Because my curiosity in that is I hate the flopping in men's soccer as much as the next person. It's like so annoying and so hard to watch. But I also think that if you don't utilize that, you're missing, like as dumb as it is. It's the same as the NBA. If you don't utilize that, you're gonna. If you need every inch, yeah, and you're just stretching every inch to win. I'm curious if that will catch up or if you think it's just a cultural thing where, like I think it's a cultural thing.

Kelsey: 30:40

I think you'll see a mix. So I think Vifa, you see, is cracking down on flopping a little more, like they're just stopping time, like you're not gonna get anything extra from it. So I think you'll see it start to kind of mold, because there's strategy in that. But I don't think you'll see it get as extreme as we have seen the men's professional soccer yet.

Sam: 30:59

Yeah, so on the on, this on the soccer part, with the rules. So for comparison, rugby has rules change a lot more frequently than soccer does. It's a smaller sport, so they can and the rules really do dictate how the players behave on the field. And I think you're gonna keep as long as the fans complain. As long as the fans complain about it, then the you know soccer is going to change. They're gonna change the, the rules you know. So that's. It doesn't reward flopping as much. I think they'll adjust.

Kelsey: 31:34

We're going. We're heading that way, which is nice. No on now. I think you've asked a single soccer fan do they like the flopping? Everyone finds it annoying, so I was gonna say.

Tayla: 31:42

I do think that men, if they continue to be compared to women and, like you know, they're not doing it, why are you doing it? Then I think that's also a social pressure to Pete fans to be like it's literally possible to do it without this, like stop doing it and for rules to change, as Sam said. So it is just an interesting thing to see, but there's quite a few sports that are similar, like even women's rugby is growing a lot in the islands. There's, I would say, isn't it? Is it LPGA or WPG?

Kelsey: 32:17

LPGA.

Tayla: 32:17

LPGA. I feel like that's growing quite a lot. Like I've seen a lot more like reels and content behind like crazy golf shots from these women. So I think, just in general, with exposure, I do think a lot of people will assume well, the LPGA is not going to be as entertaining, or the WNBA might is not going to be as entertaining. Maybe that's true, but maybe it's also just an assumption and so the demand isn't there and so it's just like an interesting market response. I don't know. What do you think?

Sam: 32:47

No, I think that I agree.

Kelsey: 32:50

Also, it's WPSL women's pro soccer league just came to me WPSL. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. If someone forgets, I forget.

Zachary: 33:01

Now we just have to look at that.

Tayla: 33:04

Well, while you do that, We've talked. Nwsl I don't know Well as kind of avid followers of sports as well, and we've talked a little bit about this, but do you think that the media coverage and public perception of women's sports have? In what ways do you think that has changed, in addition to what we've been saying? And then, what do you think can be done more to ensure fair representation and recognition, because maybe equal isn't the right term because you know you're on the same level. Yeah, but like fair representation and recognition in sports.

Zachary: 33:44

Yeah, that's so hard because, yeah, I think it comes back to like it's entertainment, right. And so there's this difficult balance of like 100% men have had a leg up on this, a huge leg up, where women haven't had an opportunity to like, showcase themselves and grow a fan base and do any of this stuff and and push their sport to a point where it is more entertaining and you know, yada, yada. But there's this other side of that. That's like, like I can see, like US I don't know what's a non, what's a super non-popular like like US rugby, I guess. Right, like US rugby is probably like one of the smaller sports and yeah, it's just new yeah, right, I could see those players getting mad for the same reasons.

Zachary: 34:29

Right like that the NFL is. You know, these guys are getting like the smallest contract is a million dollars or whatever yeah, and it's like not, it's not more skills, it's just, it's just different they've, like, they've also spent their whole lives like, like perfecting their skill, you know and so it's.

Zachary: 34:48

I think it's a difficult balance between that. That for sure means we, I think we have to work. I mean we have to work with women's sports for sure, like for the first time ever seeing the NWSL like the soccer league, now that we know the WPSI looked it up is the woman's premier soccer league.

Zachary: 35:08

That's what I did with club and so that's why I was in my head and so, yeah, and is there's like for us to see the first game, or my? The first time for me ever seeing a game on TV is like you know. I mean even like late night or early in the morning they're not showing that stuff. So like something needs to be done.

Zachary: 35:30

For sure, I'm not great with exactly what should be done, but I think there's a super difficult balance there of like, like you know, the NFL did something right, you know I mean, or or they were marketed better, whatever it was business or from business side, or from the sports side or whatever. It is like something worked and it brings money, you know so I would say it's all about marketing 100%.

Kelsey: 35:54

So you have like, I think BYU women's soccer do it really really well and they're the only woman's sport, or one of the only women's sports, that actually makes a profit like not that university, no, no in most universities, like most women's sports, don't make a profit.

Kelsey: 36:11

Most of time they don't sell tickets because they just want people to come. But BYU does and they have like 5,000 people come and so they do make a profit, from what I understand. But it's all just in marketing. So, being at Utah State, if you look at Utah State soccer media versus Utah State football's media, it's very different. Like someone threw together Utah State's soccer and like it was. It's like very planned for, like and very like the pictures are better and the quality is better for the football. So they have someone like dedicated yes, it's instead of someone's like side job. We're like, oh, we need to do this.

Kelsey: 36:51

And so I think also a lot of the times we would go out and we'd have the girls set up a booth on campus and we would try to advertise our games to people and they're like, oh, there's a game or where's the field? They didn't even know where the field was because no one's ever told them that it's. Even there's an option, so people can't even make a decision if they want to go or not. I don't even know. It's an option, awareness. So I think marketing is a big big thing. I think we'll see a big shift with this, with the Royals coming, because the RSL we also like doesn't do very well right now, but I think you'll see a big shift with the Royals because there's women's soccer in Utah is big it's weirdly good and very big, like we're in the top three states in the US.

Kelsey: 37:35

Yeah, consistently with our like as I think we'll see more of shit, but I think a lot of it's marketing. Now that we have the systems running right, just so people have awareness, they can like make the choice, and BYU does it with camps. If you have little kids to want to come to your games, they bring their parents and their friends. Yeah, so they do it really really well so so as the marketer in the room.

Sam: 37:58

Thoughts on that just like how to ensure that fair coverage or focus or money yeah, I know Kelsey's rights you so you got to look at it from a business perspective rights you could have really effective marketing on a bad product. I'm not saying it's a bad product, but I think you know there's people that are running the school that might be like if we put resources towards the football, we know we're gonna get a return and have more money and therefore we can help subsidize soccer. So they're just making business decisions. I don't necessarily agree with all those business decisions and so it's the same reason why you know the women were paid the way they were paid. You know someone at the top made a business decision. The men's soccer make, you know that money because of a business decision. So you know it's a hard to balance what is fair with what brings in money. But what's how you excuse me, how you make the change really is what's happening. Kind of like you can do a lot of marketing with no money and create a lot of awareness, and I think that's what's great. Like you were talking about, byu has done really well Just a lot of grassroots campaigns to get people to come watch and then, as you get more people to watch, you get the people making business decisions to go hey, there's actually an audience here. Let's throw some resources at it and then they start to see your return. So you know, like Zach was saying earlier, we're gonna keep seeing it grow.

Sam: 39:26

It's an entertaining product, you know. Women's soccer is very entertaining. Women's tennis is very entertaining. There's so many women's sports that are just super fun to watch, just as fun as men, and some, if not more, so just comes down to you know, is there a profit at the end of it for some dude at the top?

Kelsey: 39:42

really, yeah, and I think location makes a difference. I think the reason why BYU is so successful versus why I don't think Utah State will have quite as much of a viewership is just people.

Tayla: 39:54

People living in the town.

Kelsey: 39:55

Yeah, utah Valley anyone from Salt Lake down to Payson is pretty accessible through UR, where Logan's pretty out there Up in the mountains, yeah, yeah, I think that's true too.

Tayla: 40:05

So, I guess, do you think that it's important to have women's sports or to highlight them, and, if so, why? And or do you have any experiences that you could share, that kind of highlight the importance of having, like women, female representation in sports?

Zachary: 40:28

You're the soccer player. I wanna hear from you first.

Kelsey: 40:31

I think it's important. I think we've seen in media across the world in every aspect, that people just wanna see someone like them, Like Zach and I have had discussions a lot about the Barbie movie oh yeah, and just versus like. A lot of men, like as a general consensus, didn't love it Right, but I think a lot of women just loved it because it was like holy cow, there's like a woman movie, it's like for a woman, you know what I mean when a lot of these action movies are all about men killing and all the stuff and they're like yeah, you know what I mean, Like that could be me, I could be the hero, you know what I mean. And I think, finally, women were like oh, I'm the hero, you know what I mean.

Kelsey: 41:10

And so I think it's important If you want your girls to actually be empowered and if you want them to see any option, what they can be, whether that's if your daughter wants to be a dancer or wants to play sports or wants to be like a super academic, it's nice to see someone in that spot, to see it's possible, and so then you can control without having to overcome like unnecessary barriers of what you want to do. So I think, as a girl or like anyone, it's just nice to be seen, so you know it's possible, even if it's not what you want to do.

Tayla: 41:42

Yeah, I feel like I've talked about this idea a lot with Sam. It's just this idea of collateral damage and I do feel like, in a lot of ways, just because of the delay in women's equality and women's rights, there's just so much collateral damage from decades and generations and centuries of just like if you have been born in another time but unfortunately you're just collateral damage of the times, and I do think that I'm sick of seeing like collateral damage in women of just not only not knowing that something was an option, but actually it not being a realistic option, and so I think it's important anytime I see any woman kind of doing anything fortunately so common these days to see women doing great things. But it's not. It's kind of new still Like even five, 10 years ago, women were just in the tabloids for like famous people and usually in a negative way oh, they were drunk driving or something right. That's really the role models, and there were a couple like Oprah you know You're a hero, Sultan and Oprah.

Kelsey: 42:51

Yeah, that's kind of what you had.

Tayla: 42:52

You had these options and you didn't really have like women in power, you didn't have leadership in government, you didn't have like.

Tayla: 42:59

I think that's why people like Billie Jean King you know the tennis player that played and won against a man were pretty huge but they were standalone at the time. So I think it's important for that reason that not only you know our daughters, but just everyone right now, like the sooner we get it done, the sooner the less collateral damage that we have. You know, I don't think it's too far gone for like even me, who obviously will never be a professional, will never play at a college level, and it's like way past where I am in life, but still, like you know, there's I don't know if damage is the right word, but I'm like missing out on that solidarity or that support or that team building or how to parent Ella to do it or whatever. And so the sooner we can get it done, the sooner I think we can have more social equality in general. Small things like sports, entertainment, leadership they do trickle down in small ways to just like how things are in society.

Kelsey: 43:53

So Well, I think it's important to recognize this principle and like multiple aspects and I think you see it on the men's side, where you see more stay home dads and a lot more men are being like oh that's an option, that's an option? Yes, and it's a good option if they can do it. You know what I mean?

Kelsey: 44:08

It's very like go you yeah you could stay home and bond and it's very like unusual, and the more there is, the more it's like oh, this is like an option. I don't feel like any barriers or whatever if that's something you really want to do. So I think just the principle is just representation just helps you to make decisions that you want to do. There's no barriers, there's no like, oh, but girls don't do this or boys don't do this. It's just like do. I want to do it.

Tayla: 44:30

Yeah.

Kelsey: 44:31

Yes, you know what I mean. I think that's important in society.

Tayla: 44:34

It's a great point is that less bearers for women are less bearers for men, because by barricading women you do the same to men, and I think just providing space for anyone to kind of do what they feel drawn to do is great and supported in it.

Sam: 44:51

Look, I've been trying to pull off the stay at home dad thing for like decades now, so if you could just make a little bit more money with this podcast or something I feel like you just want to stay at home, but that's not true.

Tayla: 45:03

He's actually. He actually would do great. In fact, I think three of my coworkers that are women, their husbands are stay at home dads and they everyone loves what they're doing.

Sam: 45:12

Sounds like the last one. Honestly, it is the last one. I really love reading the kids Seriously like being with the kids is the best.

Tayla: 45:18

I know you have like the best weekend ever, right? I?

Sam: 45:21

did. Even one of them was sick. Even one of them was sick.

Tayla: 45:23

Yeah, best cuddles. So I agree. So kind of switching gears from like just kind of this focus on women and representation. I would love to know kind of your thoughts in general on, like, specifically, college athletes and how compensation does or doesn't work for them, and if you have any thoughts on that, because I guess to like and you would tell me if this is as accurate as college athletes could not accept money for playing.

Kelsey: 45:52

Well, not again. They can Right.

Tayla: 45:54

Could not OK. Yeah so that's what I was saying. That's the change. So they couldn't accept money. They couldn't accept like endorsement, they couldn't accept like anything in form of like compensation for being an athlete. But there was a recent change. What a year ago no.

Kelsey: 46:08

A year and a half ago, it was almost two.

Tayla: 46:10

Almost two years ago, where that has changed Thoughts on that, positive or negative.

Kelsey: 46:15

The nice thing is, the highest paid athlete from NIL is a female gymnast. Nil Now name. Image likeness is what policy is called so you can like make money on your name, image and your likeness. So they call it NIL, and the highest paid is a female gymnast. There's a couple like Brawny James and that kind of thing that make a lot of money, but the highest is a female gymnast, which is cool. Yeah, I didn't know that.

Sam: 46:39

I think it's amazing. Honestly so yeah, college football is like one of the biggest I'd say quote unquote industries there is, and the schools and the coaches and everyone else was making bank.

Tayla: 46:48

Yeah, they would take the money.

Sam: 46:50

Yeah, and the college kids weren't making anything, so I think it's great.

Kelsey: 46:54

Yeah, we watched a podcast, no, not a podcast Documentary on Johnny Football.

Zachary: 46:58

Yeah, johnny Manziel, I finished him on Netflix section. Pretty good, but is there a gone?

Kelsey: 47:04

No, I was just going to say that if NIL was around when he was around, I think he would have had a much better outcome in his life.

Tayla: 47:13

So yeah, give us some context.

Zachary: 47:14

Yeah, that's a little tough. I don't know if I agree 100% with that, but I get where you're coming from.

Zachary: 47:19

I think where you're coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong. If you watch the documentary, he's a star in college and then, because he wasn't getting paid, he did underground deals, basically signing stuff and then selling it, and he made a ton of money doing this. And then they're like, hey, the NCAA kind of caught him but couldn't prove it. And then he's like, yeah, I'm not doing that. And that's like, unless you're really dumb about it, you don't get caught Because you just say that everyone's forging those. If there's all these autographed things coming up, you can just say they're forged and so he's making all this money. And then that kind of propelled him into this party life. And then he went to the NFL, signs an $8 million contract. There's a lot more to this story, but as far as the money goes, he signs this $8 million contract and just kind of like fizzles out of the NFL Because he's just like partied.

Kelsey: 48:10

There's mental health stuff that goes on addiction and stuff.

Zachary: 48:13

Yeah, a lot of mental health stuff. So that was what I was going to bring up actually is the reverse of that is, if we're giving all these 18, 19, 20-year-old kids a ton of money.

Tayla: 48:25

Yeah, their brains are not developed yet.

Zachary: 48:27

And I guess, to be fair, what's the difference of when was LeBron in the NBA of 20?

Sam: 48:33

19 and 20. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like so maybe it doesn't matter Anyways.

Zachary: 48:38

Yeah, I'm as he was 19. So maybe it doesn't matter anyways, but it can be dangerous. Yeah, it's kind of tough that you're giving these kids so much money. I think it's a good thing 100%. I'm not saying anything against it but I think there's complications there, of like.

Tayla: 48:54

There's drawbacks.

Sam: 48:55

Yeah, there's other rules you can probably start putting around. It start putting the money into an escrow account until when they're done with college. So technically it's not really like another league of sports, it's rather it is college but the money goes into escrow. You graduate college. Money comes out when you're ready for professional sports, because things you can do.

Tayla: 49:12

Yeah, I think that would be good because I do think that, of all the people to get compensated for your athletic skill, it should be you before anyone else?

Tayla: 49:21

Because you are the one making that marketable and making the money and getting the viewers right. But I agree with Sam, like I don't think it's healthy or smart to put that on. Wow, sorry, I put that on kids and I do think having it for them for when and I'm always talking about when their brains are actually developed and when they can make wise decisions on what to do, or be guided by, not like their buddies, but by actual professionals on what to do with that money, I think that would be a good mix.

Kelsey: 49:52

I think a lot of things. If I were to point out something I think is wrong in college athletics is you have all these kids that are super talented and they're so focused Like they're so dedicated in what they're doing, like the amount of drive and effort that you have to have to get to that point especially D1, like college athletics, and then even being on the top, like top D1 schools, is like insane. But then you only have like so D1 athletes are 1% of anyone in the place. Like if you make a D1 soccer team and you're a girl, you're 1% of all girls that play soccer. 1% of them get into it. That's like rec soccer, that's everything. Like 1% of those get up to professional sports.

Kelsey: 50:43

So you have all these people that their whole life has been focused on this sport and they're left with what next and it's so hard to get in their mind that it's not everything. But there's so many kids that get like dumb, like majors and all this stuff and they just have nothing to do after and they kind of become like has been, in the sense that they have nothing else in their life going for them and I think man, that's a really big. I think NIL can cause that, because you already have pretty egotistical people because they're good at what they do, and so I think there is some like danger in that. But I think if they have systems and if culture shifts which is really hard to shift culture towards like bigger picture things You'll see a lot more kids with level-headed, being able to process money and process futures, where I think right now it's very tunnel visioned and like yeah, this is the only thing that matters in my life.

Tayla: 51:40

That's a hard balance, right, because when people focus everything and put everything, they're more likely to actually, and when you start like having people Be smart and like have a backup, that's when you could almost limit yourself. So that's the hard thing is like Is that smart? For most people, yes, but yeah, how did you?

Kelsey: 52:00

do that for the I think just even teaching skills and like teaching like concepts and stuff, like and making sure our kids are doing Like actually have a plan, like if regulation doesn't work out. What legitimately can we do for you to have a plan like whether it's like the school helps them get internships or have future job Opportunities lined up just like, even just like, yeah, exposing, exposing as parents, exposing them to something else, that they can also really enjoy.

Kelsey: 52:28

Yeah, so just so that they like can find that I think balance is better for you anyway. So you're saying there's not even a program right now, that you can't transition, but it's like really dumb, like they'd be, like we're doing an interview night and like you dress up and like do some interviews and like that's helpful, but like that's not like a whole semester's worth of like hey we're going to classes like three times a week we're gonna be doing yeah, there's a lot, you know, to transition out of going from, you know, high school college.

Kelsey: 52:56

Yeah didn't make professional.

Sam: 52:58

So, hey, you're gonna need at least these three to six months of helping to transition you to like a Different career, maybe in sports, but not To actually be the athlete so we're seeing it.

Kelsey: 53:09

There are a couple people that come in. Like we had one guy that came in and he was like I played professional soccer, I didn't know what to do, and we're like trying to help people, but there is like a disconnect. So we have there's a connections class for freshmen that try to teach you like how to do school and stuff, but it was just so easy that anyone could just skimp by and not learn anything. So then what's the point?

Kelsey: 53:29

because you didn't get a college student a reason to not do the work. They're not gonna, they just have a lot going on. So it's not be like ridiculously hard, but like actually like learning and testing knowledge and like giving experiences and that kind of thing.

Tayla: 53:44

So so to kind of wrap things up and tie it in a bow, what I Guess maybe an interesting way to put it could be what advice would you give yourself as an athlete ten years ago if you could? So you're like mid-teenager age for us, for you.

Zachary: 54:09

A decade back, two decades, yeah, 20 years behind for me a decade, Sorry.

Sam: 54:16

I'll start so Honestly. I really liked how I treated sports growing up and the relationship I had with him. The thing that I wish I had done different was to see that there was a way to get like some college tuition or some sort of like support for College if you, you know, try out for the track team or anything literally anything like. I didn't realize that that was a resource until much later and that's something I wish I would have told myself, because yeah, I'd, I'd I'd end up making some friends on the different teams and track and stuff and it was just like they, you know, got to go to college for a big discount Whereas I was still like an international student and it was paying like out the butt to try and stay in school.

Kelsey: 54:59

And Sam is weirdly fast.

Sam: 55:01

Yeah.

Kelsey: 55:02

Like it's shocking. You ran one time I was like what the Like pull out obviously you run around, but like it's not very often when you see someone not just like take, yeah, yeah.

Tayla: 55:16

Yeah, I would. I think I would Expose myself to the idea of like really great coaching, because I actually never, I don't think had very successful coaching Experience. I didn't have anyone that could really coach me properly, or anyone probably were okay, you know, but not really skilled, and that makes such a difference. So I wish I would have exposed, been exposed to a real coach or even just like a personal coach On on some of my skills. I think that would have made a huge difference for me and my skills and confidence, but also just like in my coach ability as a person overall.

Zachary: 55:56

Yeah, I kind of agree with Sam in some sense that I don't regret a whole ton Because I learned like some really hard lessons, but those lessons I feel like benefited me so much more than how hard the Situations were.

Zachary: 56:13

You know like what I went through and I also don't know Like how much the team aspect of playing on team sports like benefited me, which is weird, but it just is one of those things you know like the butterfly effect type of. You know Like like what if I didn't learn these skills like I don't know how they affect me, but If I could go back with Knowing what I learned, then I would I would a hundred percent just have gotten into what I've Recently gotten into the past couple years, like personal sports, like way long ago, and just Enjoyed them and like kind of had less pressure on myself too and and be able to just take it at my own pace and like when I want to go really hard with it, I go hard and we just want to have fun. You have fun, and I think that was a balance. I didn't learn until later and so yeah, that's a good one.

Tayla: 57:06

I'm so curious what you'll say.

Kelsey: 57:08

For me I think you see this in a lot of, especially female athletes. If you went to my friends in college, I think they'd all agree is just learning how to not tie self-worth to your sport. So like giving everything that you can, I think, like the grit, the like teamwork, the like hardships and everything. But it's learning how to like, not Be like if I'm not playing, then I suck. Or like if I'm not playing, then like what am I? Like you very like identify, like I'd meet people and I'm like I'm a soccer player. We're in like there's so many other things that you can identify yourself as or even not identify yourself as, and so and I think that is one thing I would try to like teach myself, just because Transition after is a lot, I would imagine a lot better.

Tayla: 57:53

So yeah, but I would say overall like positive experiences for me with sports, like the people and friends and teammates that I met, like I said earlier, like literally life-saving and life-changing, and also the lessons I learned, like I 100% recommend Athletics of any kind to anyone for a lot of reasons, but I just think it's. It's just kind of taps into a part of humanity that you know you only get in this one way, just like this tribal, but even outside of that, like your mind, body kind of connection. There's so many, so many benefits to it. So that's what I think. Any last thoughts before we finish up amen.

Tayla: 58:34

He speaks for everyone. Thanks for listening to the babe. What do you know about? Podcast?

Sam: 58:46

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