Babe, What Do You Know About?

Modesty Culture

March 22, 2023 Sam and Tayla Season 2 Episode 20
Babe, What Do You Know About?
Modesty Culture
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Show Notes Transcript

In this episode of "Babe, What Do You Know About?" hosts Sam and Tayla dive into the topic of modesty culture and the impact it has on young girls. They discuss the problematic nature of teaching girls that their worth is tied to their clothing choices and how this can lead to harmful beliefs and behaviors. 

Sam and Tayla also explore alternative ways to approach the topic of modesty, emphasizing the importance of empowering girls to make their own choices and encouraging them to embrace their bodies. Tune in to this thought-provoking episode to learn more about the issues with modesty culture and how we can work to create a more positive and inclusive environment for young girls.

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Tayla (00:11):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:14):

Where your hosts husband and wife duo, Sam

Tayla (00:16):

And Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment

Tayla (00:22):

I feel very strongly that you would either get very far or that you would win very strongly.

Sam (00:33):

I don't know. I feel like the game has got so much luck involved that you know, feel like you could be good at these things. And even if you are good at these things, that could be the thing that gets you out early.

Tayla (00:47):

True Survivor is a very evolving game, and as fans who have watched every single season together, I still feel like you would do really well just because I just, every time Jeff Props gets up in an ad between, and he is like, have you ever thought about being on Survivor? I'm like, Sam, do it. Do

Sam (01:09):

It. If, okay, so if you're okay with me leaving you with the kids for three months or however long it takes to go out there and do, it's a month thing,

Tayla (01:18):

One

Sam (01:19):

Month, well, I'm sure there's other stuff around her. You got to get there,

Tayla (01:21):

Including the other

Sam (01:22):

Stuff. Okay.

Tayla (01:24):

I bring home a million bucks and I, I'm fine with that.

Sam (01:29):

Okay.

Tayla (01:31):

You heard it here folks. Just kidding. If you ever got a cost, that would be amazing though.

Sam (01:38):

It'd be so I just can't even imagine having the time to be able to just leave for months and go do

Tayla (01:45):

Anything. I actually dunno how people do it, especially people, because it's not like they just have rich people on there. People that have lower paying jobs, they must have some sort of deal or I don't know. I don't how it works actually.

Sam (01:58):

Yeah,

Tayla (01:58):

We should find it on Reddit or something. See if people give background on that. How does it work with

Sam (02:04):

Work If send us an email.

Tayla (02:07):

Yeah, we want to know so Sam can apply. Anyway, so today we're going to be talking about modesty culture, which is ironic because in Survivor everyone's just wearing their underwear the whole time. But I'm going to give my little intro. This intro is a little bit different. It's a little less statistics heavy just because it's a little more subjective of a subject and it isn't studied as much to be honest. But here we go. Modesty, sometimes known as demure, is a mode of dress and deportment, which intends to avoid the encouraging of sexual attraction in others. The word modesty comes from the Latin word, modest, which means keeping within measure. Standards of modesty are culturally and context dependent and very widely in this use. It may be considered inappropriate or I modest to reveal certain parts of the body. In some societies, modesty may involve women covering their bodies completely and not talking to men who are not immediate family members.

(03:12):

In others, a fairly revealing but one piece bathing suit is considered modest while other women wear bikinis. Standards of modesty, discourage or forbid exposure of the parts of the body varying between societies, which may include areas of the skin, the hair, undergarments and intimate parts. The standards may also require obscuring the shape of the body or parts of it by wearing non formm fitting clothing. In a survey conducted in a study on modesty and the fashion industry, they found that 72 participate. 72% of participants tied modest dress with respect for one's body, and 59% said that I modesty was degrading to women. So babe, what do you know about modesty?

Sam (03:53):

Very little

Tayla (03:56):

Because you don't dress modestly or because you've never had to think about

Sam (03:59):

It. Yeah, because I've al, at least personally, I've not really subscribed to modesty culture, just in general in terms of how I view people and then also how I've kind of treated myself. And also, I don't know, it's growing up in South Africa, there's a part of culture there, which is very conservative and modesty culture is probably a thing, but then there's another side to it, which cause I grew up in the beach culture, there would be topless people at the beach. I mean literally, and you just kind of get used to it and not really pay attention to it or sexualize it. And we were just there to surf and enjoy the waves, so it wasn't really like a thing. And then in my adult life, I've spent a lot of time around certain beach culture stuff, and there's definitely some in California, very much a culture around the beach was very much sexualized,

Tayla (05:02):

Was weird if you got it flaunt it

Sam (05:03):

Yeah, yeah, it was very weird. But then in Hawaii it was just, it doesn't matter what your body shape is, you're kind of wearing the same thing. Yeah,

Tayla (05:09):

You're there to be at the beach,

Sam (05:10):

Whatever. So yeah, I don't know a lot about it in terms of it affecting me personally and also my views on people. But I mean, I'm being part of the LDS faith, and so it was definitely part of, especially a big part of, I guess when I moved cha and people started talking about how you dressed and there was a VL club, Virgin Lips Club. I was like, what is going on? This is weird,

Tayla (05:37):

That idea of value and virginity even when it comes to kissing. But

Sam (05:42):

I wasn't part of the in-group, so I wasn't really part of that kind of group as well. So I don't know. You've probably got a lot to say about this, so I'm for sure a lot of space.

Tayla (05:53):

But I want to ask, so you're also one of four boys. You don't have any sisters or young girls in your home growing up, and your mom is actually a single child, so she didn't actually grow up with sisters or brothers either. And so I am curious, did your parents ever talk to you about modest stress? Did any church leaders ever talk to you about dressing modestly?

Sam (06:13):

No. And on my mom's, I never ever saw my mom dress modestly growing up, if that makes sense. It wasn't a thing that was noticed. She was very happy to be in a swimsuit most of the time and it was never a thing.

Tayla (06:31):

So she didn't really talk to you about her being modest either. Okay. Yeah. But did you hear that term growing up and if you did, what was the context and which you heard those terms?

Sam (06:43):

It would have been when I was 15 and 16 in Utah.

Tayla (06:48):

Related to girls or to you?

Sam (06:50):

Related to girls, yeah.

Tayla (06:51):

Okay. And what was kind of the idea behind when that was brought up? What were people usually saying about

Sam (06:59):

It? It was weird to me. So I took a date to a school dance. It was very much everyone talks, was talking about shoulders and making sure there's a sleeve. It was such a big deal, a capped sleeve. It was so bizarre to me. It was just like, what is this so weird? What difference does it if you have a sleeve to the shoulder thing or not? I mean, it looks the same to me in terms of appealing this or not. Okay,

Tayla (07:27):

Whatever. It's a shoulder.

Sam (07:27):

I just thought it was a Utah thing in my, that's my head. Yeah.

Tayla (07:30):

Okay. Interesting. Very interesting. Thanks for letting me ask some questions. So I do want to speak to, because it's not a big point, but the dance thing it for sure was totally something on my mind. Anytime I was also searching for dresses because I knew I judged other girls who were exposing their shoulders for dances. I totally did. I mean obviously taught that good girls or righteous girls or I don't know, just those girls didn't expose their shoulders even for a dance. And so when I saw other girls doing it, I was just like, wow, they, they're just being lazy or how dare I know I truly did. And my mom, we all just felt that way. Obviously I never voiced that to them, but obviously it fills me with shame and sadness that I did feel that way about other girls and other women.

(08:27):

But I did. I very much did. Even I remember, and I'll get more into what my modesty standards were and what I was talk growing up, but for example, wearing shorts to the knee long shorts, if you can really call them. That was very important. And I did judge girls who were just wear soccer shorts or short shorts all the time. I did judge them. I thought, wow, they just want to show their legs the whole time. I definitely thought that they were doing it to be seen as opposed to it being hot as hell. You know what I mean? I do think there was some subconscious jealousy too. I wished that I could just feel comfortable or free to do what made me feel comfortable, but I very much didn't. But yeah, the dance thing, totally. It's a thing. It was a thing for me.

(09:22):

So I do want to, before we kind of continue, I do want to talk about what modesty culture is. Okay. Yeah. I spoke a little bit about just bonnet. Yeah. So modesty culture is a set of beliefs and practices that promote the idea that women should dress and behave in a way that is modest and unassuming. So that's kind of the idea. And while the intentions behind modesty culture are hugely well meaning, and I would say that's the true in my upbringing. So the idea behind it is well meaning there are issues with that approach that I want to address. I'm going to bring them up just now and then we can come back through them. So the first issue that I find with modesty culture is that it places the burden of responsibility on women to prevent sexual harassment and assaults. And I would say harassment is the main one.

(10:12):

So it places the burden if you don't want to be harassed or viewed sexually specifically or to be approached that way, it's on you to dress so that behavior isn't coming to you. So I do feel like it's dangerous, unfair assumption. I think it absolves perpetrators of their responsibility and it enforces the idea that women's bodies are inherently sexual and that women's bodies need to be covered up to avoid unwanted attention. So problem number one. Okay. Problem number two is that modesty culture reinforces harmful gender stereotypes and reinforces the idea. I think that women are responsible for maintaining the moral fabric of society. Pretty much women are the gatekeepers for moral morality. If women stop saying no to sex, then sex will happen. It's just this idea. It's completely stereotypical that men always want sex, and if women don't gate keep it, people will just be immoral all over the place.

(11:14):

Again, that's just the general idea of morality, and it also leads to a culture where I think women feel shame and guilt about sexuality and about their body. And then the third one is that modesty culture can be damaging to a self-image or body image because it creates a sense of shame and guilt and negative and distorted body. I mean, you're constantly just thinking about your body and how it's being perceived by others rather than just experiencing life in it. Does that make sense? So those are the three main issues I see with Mo modesty culture. But let's go to the first one. I want to get your thoughts on the idea that modesty culture places the burden of responsibility on women to prevent being harassed or assaulted sexually.

Sam (12:08):

Okay. So I want to first just clarify my position on is that I do not think that the onus of morality and sexual harassment is on women. I think that's incorrect and wrong, and I think it's wrong for people to say or suggest that I do think that there's some nuance in it, though I don't think it's bad for me to have the opinion and be like, Hey, there are people out there that are sexual predators and there are people out there that are just gross. If you dress a certain way, that's going to get those people's attention. So I'm not saying that it's your responsibility to have those people not be like that, but it definitely increases your chances of being sexually harassed or catcalled or whatever. So again, I still think those guys are in the wrong and they're the source of the problem, but for me it's putting on the same sort of level of, Hey, keep your car locked. It's just advice. I'm not saying that, hey, it's your fault that your car got broken into. I'm just saying, Hey, just lock your car.

Tayla (13:24):

Yeah, but no, I see that. So before I just jump into, yeah, yeah, I do see that. I think my problem is that, and this is where modesty culture is, where more discussions are being had to women on gatekeeping or making sure that they're clothed so that they don't get that attention and less conversations are being had with people including men on, hey, just because someone dresses this way doesn't mean that you're entitled. I think that's the problem is I think both are true. Yes, obviously the way that you dress will get a certain type of attention, but I also think that it's not that cultural to give and talk about and put that ownership on men or other people to be also, as much as we're talking to girls about being aware of that, we're not talking to boys about that responsibility. Hey, just because someone dresses this way, it doesn't actually mean that you're okay to do this or that.

Sam (14:24):

Yeah. So I mean, I've never been in a group of friends or have so been in the company of people where they sexually harassed or can Cole or anything like that never actually been a part of a group like that. So it's hard for me to speak on to say, Hey, those conversations aren't happening. It almost feels like it's a given in terms of the people that I've grown up with and been surrounded by and we've all had the same opinion, Hey, that's dumb and gross and the guy's an idiot. So it almost feels like it didn't need to have a conversation about it. I'm not saying that conversations in general shouldn't exist about it, but generally speaking, I feel like every guy knows it's wrong.

Tayla (15:10):

And I feel like generally speaking, most women don't dress crazy, but still the conversations. So I guess if we're not considering that most people are normal a given, then we need to equalize the conversations that should be given to each. So yeah, I mean, most girls probably don't need to be spoken to about how they dress because most of them dress appropriately to the situation that they're going into. Oh, but those conversations are still happening. So if those conversations are happening to something that's pretty much a given for most of those girls, then also the same conversations should be given to boys about something that may be a given to them.

Sam (15:50):

So I mean, I'm totally supportive of equal playing ground. So if I'm aware of and see a guy acting inappropriately with a woman that sexually harassing them, cat calling, et cetera, I feel that it's perfectly okay to be like, dude, what are you doing that's like, don't do that. That's dumb. And if girls dressing inappropriately for attention, would it's okay for a woman to be like, Hey, what are you doing that you're dressing pretty crazily here for just to get sexual attention from idiots? Would that be fair?

Tayla (16:27):

It could, yeah. I mean, I would say generally, but at the same time they're not the same thing at all. Someone dressing and controlling their own body is not. So someone speaking to me about how I'm dressing on my own body is not the same as you speaking to a man about how we treats someone based on someone else's body. Do you see how those are not the same? I

Sam (16:50):

Can see how they're different. So

Tayla (16:53):

I am saying yes, depending on the relationship as a parent for example, those are appropriate conversations to have. But it's not that they're not the same, they're not equatable.

Sam (17:04):

So where I feel like we're on the same page because we're talking about extreme examples that neither of us do or neither of us support, neither of us supports dressing crazily in terms of, Hey, I'm going to go out and wear a thong and be topless and I'm going to go out to a nightclub and oh, how dare you look at my boobs. How dare you say something. We both are on the same page with the outliers. What I think this conversation is more appropriate though is that, hey, there's an extreme culture around, hey, it's not okay to wear active wear. So do you know what I'm trying to say? So maybe I'm long-winded on this sentence, but what I'm trying to say is that it is okay to wear short shorts, and it's kind of weird to me that there's a culture around girls must wear long basketball shorts to be modest versus the short shorts. That to me, I feel is a conversation with happening and something that should change. And I'm glad that you no longer feel that sort of need to dress that way and to view others that they should be dressing that way to be modest.

Tayla (18:18):

The sad thing is that I actually, I don't know how good I am at not subscribing to the modesty culture that was ingrained in me myself, yet I do know that I am better at not as ascribing value or moral rightness to what other women are wearing, especially dumb stuff like that, shoulders or bellies or whatever. And I don't want it for my daughter, but I will say even still, I'm detaching so much, and we'll get into this in a minute, I want to talk a bit more about my childhood and the experiences I have and the messaging that I think is not really unique to me. A lot of girls have experienced something similar, but I agree, I think it's not too productive to get into the extreme cases of this because that's not typical. I think it'll be probably more productive for us to talk about this in between.

Sam (19:18):

Yeah, because I completely agree. I think gross people are gross and we should call 'em out on being gross. And I also think that it doesn't matter, and put the caveat on all this is it doesn't matter if you go out completely naked, it doesn't mean you can be sexually assaulted. Correct. That's that. I feel like most guys agree with that. I feel like the people that are criminals do not agree with that and they're why they're criminals and bad people and should be dealt with accordingly.

Tayla (19:51):

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So I've been thinking in preparation for this, actually before we get into that, we do have a bit of listener engagement. Oh, okay. And I am going to read a message by one of our listeners. We have a lot of people actually wrote in as opposed to calling in today. And I wonder if it was just easier to explain their point of view, but we have a listener that said I wanted to send input but didn't have time for a voicemail. Modesty culture for me is sup super problematic for many reasons. But the main reason it bothers me so much is because one, it puts the burden of keeping other people's thoughts pure on women who already have enough things to worry about from creeps two, it typically over sexualizes young girls who are just learning how to get comfortable in their own bodies. And three, anytime there's an agenda that pushes their opinions through guilt or shame is a major issue. If you choose to dress modestly because that is how you feel most comfortable, that's fine. You do not have to shame others into doing the same.

Sam (20:55):

Amen. Yeah, I agree. I think it's, it's dumb. Yeah. Modesty culture is dumb.

Tayla (21:03):

And the thing is, I see where it's coming from and that's where we can get into some of my childhood because I really believe that what my parents and what church leaders and what people that subscribe to modesty culture were trying to instill in me was for me to honor my body, to protect my body, to be someone who doesn't rely on my body and how my body looks or appeals to other people to get through life. And also obviously with the religious aspect to honor God. And I also do think it was to protect me from people like that. But the problem is, is because that's something that was ingrained in me. These things I think in by trying to desexualize me as a young girl, it almost hypersexualized me, if that makes sense. So when I as a seven year old kid couldn't wear spaghetti strap dress like a summer dress because it wasn't modest, that's sending messaging because they were trying to desexualize my shoulders or whatever, that's sending a message to my child brain that, oh, there's something wrong with my shoulders. I shouldn't be showing them. And especially when you compare that to my brothers having no conversations about what is sexual, my brothers could strip down to their underwear and go swimming and no one would say a thing. But if I even thought about doing the same thing or wearing a bikini even again, I feel like it almost hypersexualized me as a child because

Sam (22:40):

It 100% hyper sex sexualizes young girls. That's what modesty culture

Tayla (22:46):

Does. And I think that's the unfortunate thing because I really do believe that most of the intentions of people subscribing to modest culture is they're trying to teach these balancers trying to protect you. But I just do think that it can send so much damaging messaging, especially if you're as a girl, comparing yourself to the conversations the boys are having, which are not happening typically. It can be really confusing. I'm like, okay. So that's not something that boys ever have to worry about or think about. They don't have to worry about how other people view how they're addressing or their bodies, but I constantly do.

Sam (23:25):

Yeah. The only messaging I ever had was basically just keep your private parts privates. Other than that, it's dress for the occasion. Dress for the A activity. So you

Tayla (23:37):

Were taught, oh, sorry, go

Sam (23:38):

Ahead. Well, I mean not taught in modesty ways, it was just, but

Tayla (23:42):

Essentially you were taught, I think the true of modesty is to dress how you're most comfortable and confident that is appropriate to the situation you're getting yourself into. Yeah. So you were actually taught healthy modesty, I guess, in a way.

Sam (23:56):

And the thing that we were taught probably more than anything else was to not look like a ragga muffin. So yeah, not

Tayla (24:01):

To look unkempt or gross or dirty.

Sam (24:04):

Brush your hair, brush your teeth, your don't, that clothing is dirty, don't wear that or iron your shirt, iron your shorts,

Tayla (24:13):

Shine your shoes. That's something I've, I've very much appreciated is you are a very hygienic person. I very much have appreciated that because my brothers haven't always been. So that I will say is despite my mom's efforts, but that's something I've appreciated. So we do have another longer message from another listener named Jessica that I've asked you to read so that people don't have to just hear my voice all the time.

Sam (24:41):

And I haven't seen this yet, so let's see how I do with my reading and comprehension.

Tayla (24:49):

Hold your judgments.

Sam (24:50):

Oh my gosh. Okay. Growing up in a conservative religion, but also in the desert was weird. And I think they wrote desserts or maybe I always have spelled dessert wrong or desert wrong. Anyways, I'm getting distracted.

Tayla (25:02):

Desert was one s.

Sam (25:04):

Oh, okay. So no, they spelled durans. Okay,

Tayla (25:07):

Start over.

Sam (25:08):

Okay. So growing up in a conservative religion but also in the desert was weird. Morally I felt like I needed to have my shoulders and legs covered to my knees and absolutely no barely showing, but I was also very hot and it didn't make sense to be so covered up. I was also a dancer. And so my costumes never fit into the beliefs around modesty that I grew up with. It was strict on Sundays, but not reinforced any other day of the week. When I left the religion, figuring out what I wanted to wear and what modesty meant to me was never in my mind. I was on a team, a body is just a body and I completely reject. And I completely rejected the idea that my body was inherently sexual, which I feel like is why so many cultures and religions push modesty. I was living in Fort Collins, Colorado when I had my firstborn and a local law had recently passed line women to be topless in the downtown area in an effort to be inclusive to women who were breastfeeding. And that was the first time since leaving the religion that I noticed feeling weird about modesty and what I should or should not be shown in public. For the most part, I'm still open to people wearing what they want and as little as they want. Now that I'm a mom, I have no idea how to navigate.

(26:21):

My six-year-old wants to wear crop tops and I feel like telling her a no, but I don't know if I just haven't fully deconstructed that part of my faith or where that feeling comes from. I was also thinking about the big commotion about female legislatures showing their arms and the uproar. I dunno what that is, but that sounds amazingly horrible.

Tayla (26:38):

Yeah. So okay

Sam (26:40):

Pin in that, but if a male politician wore a muscle shirt, it would be seen as unprofessional. Women can't wear leggings in many professional environments, but I have seen plenty of men wearing skin tight pants and aren't technically breaking a dress code. None of it makes sense and feels completely arbitrary, especially when you consider how often body top influencers influences people's feelings about who should be dressed, modesty and when. And she says, I'm really excited about the episode.

Tayla (27:07):

So I like the example she brought up where it seems like there's a double standard both ways. So there was this whole thing how some legislators in the house were wearing professional but not sleeved shirts on the floor of the house. And there was a huge uproar about that. And she's saying everyone had the uproar about it, but if a man tried to also not wear a sleeve in the same setting, it would be considered very unprofessional. So I have never thought about that, but it's a really interesting thought. But then conversely, women are not allowed to wear leggings or very tight pants in a professional setting, but men can, and they do wear very tight dress pants, for example, and no one bats. And so she's saying it seems like the modesty culture is pretty arbitrary, and I would agree. And that's what makes it partially so confusing.

Sam (27:59):

So for example, in a professional setting, women can wear dresses and skirts and can, but I can't wear shorts it that would be unprofessional to

Tayla (28:11):

Show, or we were going to talk about golf, how the L pga, I always want to say LGA

Sam (28:16):

Music,

Tayla (28:16):

The L pga, they can wear golf skirts or golf shorts, right? Or just skirts.

Sam (28:23):

I think it's just skirts.

Tayla (28:25):

But the men have to wear full long pants, which sucks.

Sam (28:28):

Yeah. So yeah, we, we've joke about, I like, man, I should just join

Tayla (28:33):

That algae,

Sam (28:33):

Declare myself a woman, wear a skirts and just enjoy that freedom.

Tayla (28:37):

Yeah. That way you don't have to be so hot. But it is interesting, and I think it does affect both, but I would say for the difference in the tone around it is that if people have a problem with how a woman is dressed, it's because they're perceiving it as too sexual for a professional setting. Whereas that's not hugely the case of why people don't want a man to wear shorts. It's because, oh, his calves are too sexual. It's more, oh, it just doesn't look professional.

Sam (29:07):

Well, for most men, but my calves are, they're amazing

Tayla (29:10):

True they are amazing. Our children are very lucky to have those genetics.

Sam (29:15):

So she's got some really good points that I really liked, which was that when you grow up in a religion, a conservative religion, you kind of can skew your whole viewpoint of what is modest or not modest or appropriate or inappropriate. And so I'm trying to put myself in your shoes, which is like, man, what is okay and not okay, because you, you're still trying to figure out what your boundaries are and what drives your clothing and your wear, and what sort of attention are you doing it for Attention, not attention, what sort of attention is okay, it is kind of blurry and something that I rarely think about. I just do not, maybe it's dressed a ragga muffin

Tayla (30:05):

Sometimes,

Sam (30:07):

But for me, I'm not worried about that. And so I can understand as a woman, it's such a, I'd say exhaustive topic to think about. And in my opinion, it would be better if you just didn't think about it. You know what I mean? How often do I talk about how much I love Hawaii and the culture there on the north shore, and you just dress however you want. And when we go on vacation there, I'm like, Hey, just whatever you

Tayla (30:34):

Want. Yeah. No one's,

Sam (30:35):

Who cares? Tayla looking. Yeah. Yeah, Tayla, whatever. Because you're wearing shorts of your swimmers, Tayla, what are you doing? We're swimming in the ocean. We're like,

Tayla (30:43):

It's not even a Modi. And that's on top of the modesty thing. There's body image issues of like, oh, who is? Yeah, exactly. But that's the thing is it's so ingrained. So that brings me to another question that a different listener had and that Jessica kind of mention in this is how to teach. So we know how, I think we know how we don't want to teach our kids because we don't want them to internalize these things. But then how do we, and I have thought about this a lot as I have mean we've had Ella, our baby girl, and she's growing up and we're like, oh, when she comes out wearing a crop top, like Jessica said, at what point, and I think as someone who has not experienced parenting someone about modesty or that idea of appropriate dress, so take the advice from someone not practiced.

(31:37):

This is theoretical. I think the best way to teach this is to have a conversation about what is driving the decision to wear what you're wearing and then whether the decision matches the activity, so to speak. So say my six year old comes out wearing a crop top, and I might have some feelings about it or some thoughts about it. I think having a conversation on, oh, well, how come you want to wear the crop top today? And if it's because it's hot or because it's comfortable, then I feel like it should be okay. Or if can help your child to be aware that they're noticing, oh, it's for other people's perception, or I'm noticing specific kind of attention, then you can help them to realize that, well, maybe that's not the best reason for a decision on what you're wearing. And if you're going to school to focus on schoolwork, is this outfit going to help you to do that? If not, then probably we should change. Or if it is something that you're feeling comfortable and able to focus on the reason you're going to get an then by all means go ahead and wear

Sam (32:41):

It. Sure. I feel like for me, we're so far away from that so many years away from that because for me, what I think is effective is kind of like how you treat boys. It's not even a topic of conversation. If they come out wearing whatever, does it really need to be pointed out and to have

Tayla (32:58):

Until they start getting

Sam (32:59):

Older, maybe until they have, you have a deep why and you're all of a sudden it's now, even though you're trying to give a balanced view on it, it's like, but you're making it a thing. And I just feel like it doesn't need to be a thing that's like it's, that's my viewpoint of it. And if the less we just treat it, it's a thing, I think it's better.

Tayla (33:19):

But I would say once you start getting into tweens and teens, it has to be a thing. Absolutely not because it should be. Because I do think I agree that would be ideal if that could be the case through adulthood. But I do think because society puts so much or has such strong messaging towards girls on how to get attention or what boys want accurate or not, that is affecting their decisions they're making. Right. Hormones, all that stuff.

Sam (33:46):

Yeah.

Tayla (33:46):

And so I think it warrants a discussion at that point. If you're noticing, I do really think you might be wearing this, not because you're thinking of other people when you're picking what you're wearing as opposed to yourself.

Sam (33:58):

Yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree. But I again, just think about that experience you had when you were seven and it was already a topic of conversation. And so in my opinion, just doesn't need to be a topic of a conversation. I bet you your brothers had no conversation about what they should or shouldn't wear. Just keep your underpants on. That's literally, literally that. That's going to be the only conversation. It's like, no, Ella, we keep our private parts private pots private, and then go out in

Tayla (34:21):

Your underwear,

Sam (34:22):

Gun, whatever. Yeah. That's what it should be because they really are at an innocent stage. And to really make more of a point of it is to remove that innocence around it.

Tayla (34:31):

You can break it. That's so true. So I want to get into a little bit more of an experience that I had. Obviously there's a lot of experiences. You have your school uniform, but the girls have to go and sit through how many inches of skin or where at your fingertips your uniform fits, even though you have the same uniform and your bodies are also different. There's a lot of stories like that. But the main one that I think is why I feel so passionately about modesty culture was my experience being abused sexually as a child. So I was abused sexually as a child from the ages of six to about 11. And it was severe and it was frequent, and no one knew about it. My parents didn't know about it. And I think the problem with this idea that what I wear or what I do affects how someone feels about me is it kind of reinforced that idea that whatever was happening to me was my fault.

(35:33):

Or even that it was something that I must have wanted or been for it. It definitely confused me as far as like, oh, well there must be something about me. And I even still find myself finding that messaging as thinking back, what was it about me that just was this big red sign on? Here's Tayla. She, you know, can go ahead and abuse her. It's just fine. And that's how I felt. It's like there's something about me that's sending that message, which obviously I was so little, that's not true. But those small ideas really reinforced. It really pushed me right back into that victim mentality.

Sam (36:12):

Yeah. So I remember when we were first talking about when you were first talking about being abused and how was it initially when you spoke about it, you almost framed it. You were an older, almost like a teenager. And then when we were pieced together, the timline Tayla, you were six, you were a child. And I remember just saying that and almost like a light bulb went off in your mind. I was like, look around. See that girl over there six, that that's how small you were. And I just remember seeing the light bulbs go off in your head and you're like, oh crap. I had all this responsibility. I had a decision in this. I was like, you were six years old. You were literally six. This is way different than we first realized what had happened. And then we went down a hole during that whole rabbit hole, a whole rabbit hole. We can talk about another time. But I remember just seeing that light bulb go off. And so I can see how it affected you because you were taking ownership and responsibility for something that you were had. I mean, again, you were a child and there was not, you did that warranted any of that behavior.

Tayla (37:27):

And that's like, I can hear that and believe it, and I obviously do, but it's so interesting to try to extricate my feelings from that brain, right? Because when I was six or seven, you feel so grown up, you feel like a lot. And that's how I felt. I felt maybe a teenager I felt like I should know. And because I've been taught this is your responsibility. And I think the other problem with that was because I felt at fault or I had invited whatever was happening, I don't think I didn't understand exactly what was going on. All I knew was that I was supposed to keep it secret. And I was told a lot of messaging about how my parents would feel about it because it was my fault. The lies I was told as a child just reinforced some of these principles that were taught to me to keep me safe.

(38:16):

And what that did was because I was like, oh, I'm at fault. It prevented me from reaching out to an adult or a parent for help because I felt like I'm going to be in trouble and they're going to agree that this is my fault, even though you feel so out of control. And so I'm passionate about it because it really can and did put me into that state. Now obviously I'm not blaming my parents, I'm blaming this person, but I do think societally, it very much made it just that the subtle messaging that can come did contribute to that victimhood. And I don't want that for anyone. I don't want it for anyone, whether it's real abuse, whether it's an unhealthy relationship, whether you're feeling uncomfortable just being on a train with other people and just being stared at. Because the fact of the matter is, and I have experienced this as someone who has dressed modestly my whole life, is that creeps are going to creep. It doesn't really matter what you're wearing, but the, that's a whole nother thing. But adding this whole other element to women, you're responsible or you can control how much this is or isn't happening to you is not really the case. But it is something we're told from very young,

Sam (39:36):

And again, 100% wrong, it was just maybe out of good intentions or maybe it's out of certain beliefs, but it's wrong and produces the wrong results.

Tayla (39:50):

And that's why I feel passionately about it because I really want to talk to the good people that are teaching these things because I do think they're good people trying to do good things. But I want to get into the reality of what is it actually telling little girls that they take with them as they become young women and adult women. And it's crazy how much that doesn't go away. I said, even though I'm deconstructing this whole idea of modesty, I still feel my body react to other women or to myself, and I have to consciously undo that messaging.

Sam (40:26):

Yeah. Funny enough, I remember when I first moved back to Utah, I don't know who it was or if it was, a couple people made comments on the fact that I was always shirtless because in my home I would just wear board shorts, shorts, whatever, and I'm in my home. And I was

Tayla (40:44):

Like, you're talking like you used to do that because you still,

Sam (40:48):

I still, yeah, but I remember people, so people not you. I'm dating actually made comments, why aren't you wearing a shirt? Or I was like, I don't know.

Tayla (40:57):

It's not comfortable. I

Sam (40:58):

Don't like wearing a shirt. I don't like wearing shoes. I don't like wearing a shirt. So don't obviously when you got out in public. But anyways, I'm just talking about just the weirdness around modesty and dress here in a conservative environment really is bizarre to me and I don't click with it. And I really do enjoy being around cultures that are a bit more open about dress. Again, sexual actually sexualizing the body. Again, I always talk about Hawaii as the sum heaven, right? But I really did enjoy that part of it where it just felt like I could be comfortable functionally just whatever, and women could be on the beach ring, whatever, and people aren't gawking and staring and they're just like, yeah, we're all here to be active

Tayla (41:51):

On at the ocean, be

Sam (41:53):

At the ocean. And

Tayla (41:53):

We're not here to be seen or with the idea that we want to be seen. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to pull in a voicemail. We do have one voicemail to address today.

Cody (42:06):

Hey Tayla. Sam, it's Cody. One thing that I would love to hear you guys' thoughts on are the correlations between modesty and the shame culture that can bring and body dissatisfaction, eating disorders, plastic surgery that's high in the church. We know that Utah County has the highest rate of plastic surgery per capita. So yeah, can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.

Tayla (42:46):

So one thing I'll say just for listeners who may not be aware is Cody, I think is referring to the L LDS church because he knows that Sam and I grew up in that church, and we live in Utah County, which is very much Mormon heavy. But I want to specify that modesty culture is not constrained to this religion or really any religion, even conservative Christianity, it's very much all over the place. You can see it in the Middle East with hijabs and burkas. And so

Sam (43:18):

Yeah, Judaism mean almost every major Abrahamic religion has strong modesty culture.

Tayla (43:25):

And even outside of religion there, there's still can be a culture about it. But I want to get to this regardless of, it's interesting, it's a very interesting thought because that is true that here where modesty culture also is in the AOS church around this area, that is true. Their plastic surgery is out the wazoo and people are very focused on ironically, how good their bodies do or don't look with bodies, dysmorphia, eating disorders, drugs, plastic surgery, even though the idea of modesty culture is to not focus on that. Anyway, I want to hear your thoughts.

Sam (44:01):

A perfect example of how it's a wrong solution for the problem that I think you're trying to solve with modesty culture. It really is hyper sexualizing everyone. You're telling everyone just how important your body is in its purpose for sexual attraction, how important it is for making children on top of that in Utah. And also you are having very young families. Women are very young when they're having children. So they're also, then they're going to be in their body

Tayla (44:36):

Changes.

Sam (44:37):

Yeah. They're going to be in their late twenties when they're done having kids. And so they're a high rate of plastic surgery to try feel like you need to be attractive and perfect looking for your husband. And it's probably the same reason why antidepressant use in Utah is some of the highest among that the nation is just a lot of people striving for that perfectionism and miserable because you can't, and in realistic terms, everyone is imperfect in some way, whether you're out of shape or your body looks different this way or what's fashionable physically is changes all the time. Big butts, small butts, big boobs, little boobs, tall shorts like

Tayla (45:21):

Eyebrows. No eyebrows.

Sam (45:23):

Eyebrows, no opposite. It all changes. So yeah, I mean step outside of this whole trends, trend stuff and just be healthy and try be. What

Tayla (45:36):

Do you like?

Sam (45:36):

Yeah, be happy with yourself. Find that this is a pretty common thing is that people that are depressed are going to not take care of themselves, how they're dress, how they're blah, blah, blah. So just focus on trying to be happy and healthy. That's my philosophy at least.

Tayla (45:58):

Yeah. Oh, sorry, go.

Sam (45:59):

No, you go.

Tayla (46:00):

I was going to say, one thing I will notice is that my whole life, and maybe even still, it's something I wanted, but anytime I dressed or I very much was thinking, what will other people think of me? And that's not just in the negative, will they judge me, but also will they, how I look constantly thinking about that. And I never really asked myself primarily, do I like this? Do I how it looks? Yeah, I think other people will like it, so I like it. So definitely was a factor. Do I enjoy this style? Do I enjoy this thing? Do I think I look good? But it wasn't the main thing. It was very much other people,

Sam (46:42):

Sometimes you, you'd wear makeup going to a show or something and you'd be like, Hey, how do I look? And I'm like, well, I mean, honestly speaking, I prefer you how you look without makeup. I mean this, it's fun. I love the eyeshadow. It looks great, and the lipstick, whatever, my lipstick. But if you have fun, that's great and I support you. But if you want my opinion, the reason I and attractive is what you actually look like nothmm, because you were done up a certain way when you're dating or whatever.

Tayla (47:12):

And that is something I very much, and I found myself, not what you intended at all, but I found myself being like, okay, I'm not really going to wear that then because Sam doesn't really like it. But I should have very much just been like, oh, that's good to consider because obviously you're the one person, I probably should consider how you feel a little bit about how I look and how I treat myself. But at the same time, especially since you did explicitly say, oh yeah, it looks nice, but it's not my preference. I should have just been like, okay, but do I like it?

Sam (47:43):

Yeah,

Tayla (47:43):

Now I'm just going to keep doing it if that's okay with you, which it was. Yeah. So it's sad. I very much, even just these small little interactions with us as married people, I still was so affected by oh, but maybe it doesn't look good because he doesn't prefer it.

Sam (47:58):

Yeah. So you are constantly asking me, Hey, what should I do with my hair? What about this hair, this haircut and this color? And I was like, it looks great, honestly, I think, and you're trying to get all this information out of me, and it's probably me, my feedback, all this excruciating. And I'm just like, well, here looks great like this. I like it. And then I'll just go buzz my head because I'm just like, whatever. Oh my gosh.

Tayla (48:19):

You're like, I don't care what day think. Yeah.

Sam (48:22):

Well, it's not that I don't care, but

Tayla (48:25):

You're doing what you want to do. Yeah.

Sam (48:26):

I got tired of longer hand, so I buzzed it and did you cure it? Is

Tayla (48:32):

This is

Sam (48:33):

It, this is it. I didn't ask for your approval or nor did it Or permission. Or permission or did it affect me doing it or not? Yeah, it's not, obviously if you're like, Hey, Sam, I definitely prefer you with a longer beard. I'd be like, oh, well that's good to know. I definitely want to look attractive to my wife. So those always in important things. But yeah, I do not consider how other people are viewing me, and you should do the same. I should. And yes, I keep trying to push this message and hopefully it's sinking in. You

Tayla (49:07):

Have a lot of ears and a lot of messaging to counteract. So be patient and it's not you, it's me slash society. But no, definitely that's something that I need to push myself to rediscover is do I like it? Not do I think it looks good, but do I like it? Yeah. And then do I think I look good? Do I think I'm enjoying this or having fun with it or expressing it? One thing I will say is maybe I'm asking so much also because it'd be nice for if you particularly something to just say it.

Sam (49:41):

Oh,

Tayla (49:41):

Absolutely. Rather than waiting for me. Yeah. To ask

Sam (49:44):

If you like it, which I'll make sure to do. And also a lot of times is also have the thoughts, does it even matter? True. Who cares? So I'm dressing this way, it's professional for my setting. I can go to work, dress this way, and who cares? I don't even care. Just whatever. As long as go

Tayla (50:01):

Dressing out, left, as long as it's appropriate to. Yeah. So that kind of pushes me. I texted my mom, so I was really curious about her thoughts on it because I obviously know what her thoughts were on it because she was socialized the same way that I was and taught me a very specific way. But I was curious her adjustments to now. Yeah. And this is what she said. She said, I think a lot of modesty culture was cultural, which we fell into as parents for sure. As you were growing up, a lot of unwritten dos and don'ts. I think modesty is important because we do need, and my mom is very religious, so you're going to hear that in this because we need to treat our bodies with honor and respect as the Lord asked us to. But the reasons behind it that we were given when we were growing up to help the young man control their thoughts is a really unfair transmittal of responsibility.

(50:49):

I do feel that the way we dress sends messages of all kinds, apart from the modesty aspect, like uniforms, professionalism, et cetera. And I wouldn't be happy having my family go to a doctor that is dressed to attend a sexy party, an extreme example, but one that portrays that what we wear and how how we wear it does pass on conscious and subconscious messages and confidences. So I think her idea is just that you have to balance the idea that this is how it should be with this is how it is together. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle.

Sam (51:21):

Yeah. I just wonder, I, I'd love to pick your mom's brain. What she's envisioning is a sexy party.

Tayla (51:31):

I wonder that too.

Sam (51:33):

That I was like, wait, what?

Tayla (51:35):

Sexy

Sam (51:35):

Party? A sexy party

Tayla (51:37):

Sultry. But yes. So it can see even her views have evolved. Yeah. Because those are things that she was told that she told to us, that she told to a lot of people. But I do think it's cool to kind of see her recognize like, huh, that's not cool actually. Why is that a reason? And that's a reason I was told constantly. I went to a girls camp in the summers and then we weren't allowed to do anything that required a bathing suit because the two or three male leaders that there were going to be there, and they didn't want to have to worry about that. Which is again, kind of creepy where it's like, why do you think you need them to not be exposed to bodies, to not be weird about girls

Sam (52:22):

That are, so they specifically say that they did

Tayla (52:24):

Say that. Wow. So I don't think

Sam (52:25):

That's, my eyes are sore from rolling so hard right now.

Tayla (52:29):

And again, I don't think that that's necessarily the reason, and I don't, but that's the reason that I was told once or twice. And other times there were other reasons, like liabilities or whatever, but it is messaging that I was told, or when I was a missionary, we were told we weren't allowed to wear yoga pants to exercise because it would be a distraction to the elders, to the male missionaries. That was the reason we were told. And I was just like, what I'm trying to work out. And so this literally what we were consigned to was like past knee length basketball shorts that couldn't really sit in because then they had roll up. And so as a girl, as a woman, you're just trying to figure out, okay, I'm literally just trying to work out functionally what can I wear? So that's just constant and so unfair to just be like, oh yeah, you need to think about not only what you think about your body, but what everyone else might think it. And again, we've established you can't control what other people

Sam (53:28):

Are going to do. We just need unisex clothing and then just be done with it. Yeah. This is so dumb.

Tayla (53:33):

Or at least unisex

Sam (53:35):

Standards. Sure.

Tayla (53:37):

So yeah, I, I'm trying to think that we've gotten to everyone's thoughts or questions, but I think to close out, and I think we'll both answer this, but in your mind, if you were to define or teach modesty the way that you think it should be taught, how would you teach it? Maybe you would even rebrand it under a different word, but

Sam (54:04):

How would I teach modesty? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I just scrapped the whole idea, like you said, put under a different brand. And for the most part until you, your kids are hitting tweens, teenage years where they're going through puberty and it's now a topic of social interaction. I wouldn't even talk about it. I wouldn't even care. It's just like I don't want my kids to care about it. And if they start caring about it, then you can start having that conversation. But really I just want to instill in them the fact that it's not a big deal, how you dress and it's not that important. So that as they go into those teenagers and they start to, it does become important. I need to be fashionable. I need to look like my friends and yeah, this celebrity looks like this. Which by the way, celebrity culture is the worst. Kim, go Kardashians. Like ruin society, whatever.

(55:02):

Yeah. And then it's just those conversations. It's keep your private parts privates and then dress, try to dress for the occasion and there's dress for the attention that you want. And be honest with it. If you want attention from boys or you want attention from girls a certain way and you're dressing that way, at least be honest about it. That's probably what I would teach our kids, because then you're self, yeah, self-awareness, not lying to yourself, you're not like you're being intentional I think is the main principle. Beyond it, we have integrity and be intentional.

Tayla (55:40):

Yeah, I love that. As I was thinking of how I would perfectly envisioned teaching these ideas or these principles, I just wouldn't so much teach it just to boys or girls or indiv or kids. It would be that we have a culture where people have the freedom to dress and behave in a way that makes them feel comfortable and confident without fear of judgment or harassment. And that women's bodies are just not viewed as inherently sexual, that they're functional bodies as well. And that we promote a culture of respect and consent where everybody is responsible for their own actions and behaviors and thoughts. And if we could just instill that in a culture, I think the clothing thing or what your body is doing goes away because we're like, no, you're responsible for your own thoughts, actions, and feelings, just like I am so

Sam (56:32):

Sure. Agreed. Thank you for listening to

Tayla (56:43):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (56:46):

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