American Exceptionalism

In this episode, Tayla and Sam discuss the complicated dynamic of American exceptionalism. They discuss what is great about America, and also how to handle conversations about America's shortcomings in a globalizing world. 

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Tayla (00:11):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:14):

Where your hosts husband and duo, Sam

Tayla (00:16):

And Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment

Tayla (00:22):

So he is been clingy enough and sad enough that I took him into the doctor today.

Sam (00:29):

Yeah,

Tayla (00:31):

You've seen anytime I even lean my body away from our baby as if I might potentially be more than a foot away from him, just freak out.

Sam (00:43):

So he doesn't freak out every time, but you definitely tell you notices. It's like, oh,

Tayla (00:48):

Where'd she go?

Sam (00:48):

Where'd she go? Oh no, I'm sad now. Yeah.

Tayla (00:52):

And then nanny, a nanny was sending us videos of how sad he was as well. He's just sad. So I took him to the doctor because I was like, he had all these ear problems. Maybe something's like wrong that I don't know. Turns out it's just a developmental milestone that is a lot more extreme than Ella's was when she was nine months old. So he's fine. He's just doesn't have object permanence yet. That's what it is.

Sam (01:22):

That's what

Tayla (01:23):

He doing right now, apparently. Yeah.

Sam (01:24):

Okay.

Tayla (01:25):

That something exists when it's not in your view still. Because in his little brain, if something's not in his view, it doesn't exist anymore. It's gone forever.

Sam (01:34):

Shame.

Tayla (01:34):

I know. Anyway, this felt a little dumb, but I'm glad now I know. Oh, he doesn't also have an ear infection or something like that as well. That's making

Sam (01:43):

Him sad. You know what? And I know this jinxing and wouldn't last forever, but they're both not sick right now. I

Tayla (01:48):

Know. Since the surgery, they've been doing really well and he's been doing really well. So I'm just like, man, knock on wood. So yeah. So the topic for today, you picked for this week, which is American exceptionalism and off brand a little bit. I have not prepared a whole big statistical introduction because we're going to address a bunch of those a little bit later in the episode. But I did think it would be good for you to kind of explain why it's a topic that you've been thinking of, why you picked it for us to

Sam (02:27):

Do. Honestly, I wish I had a good answer. Great. So should

Tayla (02:32):

Have done the research.

Sam (02:33):

Do you know what I mean? I constantly have 20 to 30 thoughts in my head at any given point. Correct. That's actually what it was, was that just popped up. But I've been doing some soul searching. Why would I think of their thoughts? And it's probably been something I've thought about a lot since moving here. Just how American focused Americans are. And that's just a phrase I've heard a number of times and I've never really heard that phrase used in another country for themselves,

Tayla (03:08):

Except for, I'm just trying to think. Maybe historically when a country is

Sam (03:16):

Like Rome

Tayla (03:18):

Back in the day, or even maybe Nazi Germany

Sam (03:23):

Or the back in the day. The British Empire.

Tayla (03:26):

The British Empire, exactly. There go. There's a lot of nationalism. So it has existed. But you're right, I don't think contemporarily that there is a country quite like it right now. Maybe some South American countries. I feel like there's a couple of very pride.

Sam (03:43):

When I was in China, there was that same sort of national prod, but it felt very different. It felt like a collective prod. I don't know how to explain it, but they definitely felt like they were China number one. That's what

Tayla (03:58):

It like. Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. I definitely have a bunch of experiences from when I first immigrated here that really put me off of American pride, which is sad because obviously I was very grateful and happy to be here. I mean, we'd given up so much to come to this country and did have a lot of opportunities we wouldn't have had where we came from. But I think it was just the manner that people kind of imposed that upon me instead of letting it happen more authentically. Kind of put me off. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Sam (04:31):

Makes total sense. So with that in mind, Tayla, babe. Oh, what do you know about American exceptionalism? You

Tayla (04:39):

Did it. I'm glad you did because I wouldn't have done it a little bit bit. I was trying to respond. You do that

Sam (04:49):

Literally you nailed down the impression.

Tayla (04:53):

Yeah, a little bit, but hard. I think it's a double-sided coin as every coin is stop

Sam (05:03):

A coin

Tayla (05:04):

Actually has a coin with two sides, has three sides. I know it does, but

Sam (05:08):

Just, I don't know why I had to say

Tayla (05:09):

That. You just had to, but it is in that a lot of the positivity and pride around America is warranted because it is a really amazing country. It is. But then again, I think it's not so much this idea that America is amazing and great, it's the idea that to value something from somewhere else is to devalue America that Does that make sense? If I ever were to speak positively about other places, it's almost like I'm speaking negatively about the states at the same time, which is not the case. But I do feel like that it's taken that way, if that makes sense. Oh, or acknowledging perhaps the negative parts of America because there are, and that's the thing, it's, there are negative parts about America is to hate America or to not be proud of America. But those, those dichotomies are not true. But yeah. What are your thoughts?

Sam (06:10):

My thoughts on American exceptionalism?

Tayla (06:12):

Yeah, just generally I guess.

Sam (06:15):

Yeah. I think having national pride is good. So it's kind of weird because when I moved here it was so unexpected to see how much and how vocal everyone was about the national pride. Everyone had a flag. School started with pledge allegiance, the flag, it was like America, 24 T-shirts everywhere, all the time. Stick. And in South Africa, yeah, you feel proud country. You knew when you watch international sports. Yeah. You're like, we're the greatest country in the world. Then you think South Africa's amazing. But it wasn't just saturated on your day to day, you didn't need that at all. So it was very interesting just to see it, have it part of your day to day, part of your day. And then it was interesting too, to come here and have, my education was still ahead from South Africa than it was in the United States. True.

Tayla (07:20):

Just

Sam (07:20):

The basic stuff like math, science, English, et cetera.

Tayla (07:23):

It's like you went a couple grades back,

Sam (07:27):

Which was a surprise. But at the same time, the United States, the schooling that went to was ahead in a lot of other things. They taught

Tayla (07:35):

The arts.

Sam (07:38):

So it's kind of a hard balance to, one, have pride in your country, but then two, to be okay with recognizing the faults in your country and to not be offended by others that point out those faults. Because what ultimately you would want is to have your country be better. Can it be better? Absolutely. And in what ways? And the only ways to know where we can be better is if we take an objective look at where the country is today.

Tayla (08:11):

Yeah. I think maybe that's made me think maybe that's one of the big problems is I feel like a lot of other people from a lot of other countries have a self-awareness that Americans don't. And that's complete generalization, but it's a self-awareness of how you come across to the rest of the world. Things that you value that might not be what everyone else values and how you do things. But it's a self-awareness. And I think don't think that America's really at fault for that because it is so far removed. It's physically not close to anything. And the only things that's close to are Mexico and Canada really. And that's where people travel. But to actually leave takes a lot of time and money to cross oceans to other continents in order to expose yourself to the reality of some of the rest of the world.

(09:04):

It's actually, it's hard and expensive to do it, whereas most other countries in the world, that's not the case. It's, it's simple to drive a few hours to the next country over or to do a continental flight to a whole nother country or even another continent. So I do think that has a lot to do with it because of that. And then also the country's huge, going from state to state is kind of going from country to country very close. And they're so different as well. And so it's just this really interesting thing where, yes, Americans are exposed to diversity, but it's within its own country. And that's what they kind of grapple with, I think politically and socially. That's where that dissonance and difficulty comes in is because really you're dealing with that vast of a cultural differences, but in the same country, on the same government, et cetera.

(09:56):

Yeah. So I thought we got a bit of listener engagement, which I always love when that happens. And I got a message from one of our listeners that I just wanted to read her experience. She said that I could share it. So get ready. She said, I want to share an experience that I had in a cultural class at Brigham Young University where I attended. We had recently finished chatting about how the US took over Hawaii, which is an extremely sad story. The professor gave us time to process it as a group, and we were all sharing thoughts. The majority of the thoughts expressed sadness, remorse, and even a little bit of guilt. I mean, if you actually know this Hawaii story, it's absolutely heartbreaking. Any who one student raises her hand and says, how dare you think this. I'm proud to be an American.

(10:42):

My great-grandfather fought in World War ii. For all of you, stop focusing on the bad and just move on. Be proud. You are in the best country in the world. Close. The entire class went silent. And looking back now, I wish I had said something. I just felt attacked as one of the two people of color women in the class. I wish that I could have said, sorry, my grandparents were in Mexico, Peru, and Tonga during World War ii. Also, I'll be proud of America when they're proud of me, the daughter of immigrants. One thing I think the student and many Americans refuse to do is acknowledge that pride can clog your revision and the opportunity for refinement. I'm grateful for America and being raised here. However, I firmly believe that there are laws, leaders and ideologies that are not okay. A great example of American exceptionalism is anytime Donald Trump talked about foreign countries, specifically Mexico and Haiti, it's pretty heartbreaking to see the lack of empathy and humility when you think you're above others. Rant over. I'm prompt to hear the episode. My husband and I listen every week.

Sam (11:41):

Oh, thank you.

Tayla (11:44):

So what do you think of her kind of experience?

Sam (11:47):

No, I think that's a very valid response. I, I've felt the same way multiple times when it's, it's like, yes, you can feel pride in all the good things, but again, being okay with recognizing some of the bad and wanting to be better moving forward is I think a very healthy viewpoint to have. And I feel like it makes it so that you are likelihood of improvements, increases.

Tayla (12:15):

And I think that's not so much, again, the pride in America, but how it's exhibited and the need to control how other people think and feel about America is an issue. And when people acknowledge, Hey, this isn't working for me, or This actually seems wrong, especially compared to these other global powers, I guess I have felt like when I've expressed thoughts that there is almost like this need to control and reshift me back to the positivity. And I get that to a point because it's not fun to look at what you have and not feel like you're being grateful, I guess.

Sam (12:56):

Yeah, yeah. And also on, you also get told for pointing out these criticisms too. There's been, or there's been times when you talk about changing the healthcare system and you're just looked at a crazy person in insert certain circles like true, oh, every other healthcare system is dumb and bad and wrong. This is the greatest. When it's far from it, the United States is maybe top 20 in terms of quality of healthcare. But when we want to improve it, it's a such a divisive topic for some reason.

Tayla (13:35):

And that's the thing is divisiveness. And it's the same. I mean, I feel like for the most part, most Americans want good things for good people. Yeah, that's a very American ideal. But for whatever reason, when we start discussing, okay, how can we do that? There is that defensiveness. One of the things that I've brought up and been very vocal about is the lack of parental leave or maternity leave that is mandated by the government because it's horrific that I have to be grateful for six weeks of leave to rest and recover and take care of a helpless infant. You care back to work when you barely stopped bleeding and your child is, can't even hold its head up still. You know what I mean? That's like a really human thing that's very difficult to do. And the moment you start bringing up for whatever reason, hey, this is wrong. And anywhere else and everywhere else can see that and has made the changes to make sure that mothers and babies and children are supported. But I guess it's hard to bring that up because then the discussion becomes more about what we do have here rather than, okay, let's actually talk about this one issue. Yeah.

(14:50):

I don't think I'm expressing myself the best tonight, but hopefully that makes sense.

Sam (14:53):

No, I get it. And I would love to, I think what would frame a lot of this discussion is if we actually looked at the actual statistics and actual rankings for a number of these things. I know you didn't start off with those statistics. No. Yeah. But I, I'd love to get to those as soon as possible just so that when we talk about the rest of its rest, people listening to us can know what we've actually been reading about in terms of where the United States ranks. Right.

Tayla (15:19):

So we were talking the other day in prep for the episode about a news clip, or not a news clip, a fake news clip, but a clip from what, A show?

Sam (15:29):

Yeah, a show. It's with Jeff Daniels, I think.

Tayla (15:33):

Yeah. From 2012.

Sam (15:34):

2012, I think the show was Newsroom or something. Newsroom where he was a news anchor. And I liked the show, but it's been 10 years, so I don't remember much about it. But I remember this one speech he gives at a college town hall meeting where talking politics, whatever. And it just kind of stood out. So I was like, yeah, that's kind of how I feel, which is, and I'm sure Jeff Daniels will say it. And then afterwards I've gone actually looked at the weird, the updated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, we should play that Kip

Tayla (16:03):

Clip. Let me play the clip.

Female College Student (16:06):

My name is Jenny, I'm a sophomore, and this is for all three of you. Can you say in one sentence or less why, you know what I mean? Can you say why America is the greatest country in the world?

Jeff Daniels Character (16:20):

Why isn't America not the greatest country in the world? Professor? That's my answer.

(16:27):

You're saying yes, you sorority girl, just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day, there's some things you should know. And one of them is there is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we're the greatest country in the world. We're seventh in literacy, 27th and math 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy 170 eighth in infant mortality, third and median household income. Number four in labor force. And number four, in exports, we lead the world in only three categories. Number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real and defense spending, where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies. Now, none of this is the fault of a 20 year old college student, but you nonetheless are without a doubt, a member of the worst period generation period ever. So when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the f*** you're talking about, Yosemite sure. Used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people.

(17:40):

We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors. We put our money where our mouths were, and we never beat our chest. We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured disease. And we cultivated the world's greatest artist and the world's greatest economy.

Sam (18:01):

I like it. I mean, but also boo, the, so yeah, I really like that moment in the show and it's, it stuck with me and why I thought about it, I really like his speech at the end where he starts talking about the things that did or does make America great. And he doesn't go into specific stats or whatever, but just kind of talks about ideals and big ideas and big things. But yeah, I went ahead and looked up some of the statistics that he was trying to talk about, if you want to hear updated, because that's from 20 12, 20 12, 20 23. And also it's in a fictional TV show, so who knows. Exactly. Fact check. In fact, one of them, the caption pulled out fourth in sports, but it's exports, so my bad. No, it's fine. Anyway, so the United States currently is 36th in literacy. Ooh. So worse, it's worse.

(18:59):

However, I'm going to put a caveat there. We still have a 99% literacy rate. It's just that the last 1%, everyone's fighting for that top spot or whatever. So it's actually not a bad thing. Top 30th. And in math literacy, however, we have, we're at the top of the leading mathematical scientists. So we have right near 50% of the top mathematic mathematics, mathematicians. Yeah. So it's actually a kind of a staggering statistic. Cause I think the next one down was at 9% or something. Wow. First and second, for science education and scientific, technical and technical journals, publications. Oh wow. That's amazing. It's actually really good. This is a bad one. 46th in life expectancy. So that's 79 years. Whereas some of the other countries at the top, like Japan, at 85 years, there's been a big improvement in infant mortality rates. It's only 33rd now.

(19:59):

Not it's 128, but that's, that's bad. 33rd. 33rd infant mortality. When you're in the United States, a first world country is bad. It is bad. So better than better in the hundred and United States is first in incarceration rates. So we're amongst these great countries, Rwanda Turk, minister, Stan, El Salvador, and Cuba. So as far as incarcerated persons per capita, so at the top pun, oh my gosh. Well, that is crazy because I read a statistic, I probably shouldn't mention it because I don't have it on me, but that the number of incarcerated citizens in the United States far outweighs the number of total citizens of a lot of countries in the world. So the total incarcerated people in the United States is 2 million, over 2 million.

Tayla (20:52):

Oh my

Sam (20:53):

Gosh. And the next highest total is China at 1 million.

Tayla (20:59):

Oh my gosh. And they it's mind. I know that.

Sam (21:02):

Yeah. So

Tayla (21:03):

They incarcerate pretty, they incarcerate a lot. Yeah. So, wow.

Sam (21:09):

Some more. So the United States is the first in military spending at, right, 780 billion. Oh my god. China's second at 250 billion. And that's an estimate. Cause we don't actually know India at 72 billion. So the number isn't 26 times, whatever it was back in 2012. Maybe the rest of the world's come up. Or maybe there was an exaggeration. But yeah, it is significantly more. Oh, I see how they're doing more than the next

Tayla (21:34):

20, next 25 countries

Sam (21:36):

Combined. That actually checks out, now that I'm looking at it. Russia at 61 billion. Yep. Yeah. So UK at

Tayla (21:43):

50 billion. Yeah, you're 700 billion. Yeah.

Sam (21:46):

Woo. Okay. So that, that's actually text out. And then I just looked up this other one that's not in there. But one that's important to me is the United States is, let me look right here. 18th in quality of healthcare.

Tayla (22:02):

Okay.

Sam (22:03):

So the it's, and I was looking at, that's part

Tayla (22:07):

Stack. That's not what I told that I'm talking about healthcare systems like insurance, since I've was talking about quality of the actual quality care given

Sam (22:13):

Quality. Yeah. It's called the healthcare index, which is the health, it's a quality of the healthcare system, healthcare infrastructure, healthcare professionals, competencies, the cost, quality, medicine, availability, and government readiness. And we're 18th. So it's like Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands, New Zealand, Germany, et cetera. We're done at number 18 for that.

Tayla (22:39):

I was actually surprised we were up that high. So

Sam (22:43):

It's expensive. So that's

Tayla (22:45):

What I was saying. It's like it's not a sustainable model. So

Sam (22:49):

Yeah. No, we budget way more than we thought. I thought I'd ever have to budget for healthcare per year.

Tayla (22:56):

Literally, one of our jobs is for that. And we don't even have very sick people in our family. Nope. So anyway. Okay. So it's doing a little bit better since then in some ways, especially the education and stuff, but a little bit worse in some ways.

Sam (23:13):

Yeah, I like reading those statistics cause it kind of framed it, which is, oh, and median household income, that was the other one, which is the United States is fifth in the world for median household income. So that's actually pretty good. Yeah, it is pretty good. So I love framing it like that, as in saying, Hey, there are some really good things about the United States. We are the greatest in these areas. And I mean, we are essentially the world police because we have spent so much on our military and defensive systems.

Tayla (23:48):

I mean, yeah, why else would you spend that amount of money?

Sam (23:53):

But we do struggle in a lot of areas, and it doesn't make us exceptional to be so poor in those, I feel like essential areas, life expectancy, infant mortality rates. I mean, that's really bad.

Tayla (24:11):

Yeah. And I think that's the interesting thing is not the America is so horrible that people would want to leave, but at the same time, if you even and I have started discussions with the idea of maybe immigrating out of the United States somewhere else, I feel like a lot of people are, so, it's such a foreign idea. Why would you leave the United States to go somewhere else? Because I feel like, again, in their mind, America is the best and you're stepping down to go somewhere else when that's not necessarily the case. Obviously in a lot of ways it's not the case, and in a lot of ways it, it really depends on what you most value. But I think that that narrative and worldview of like, oh, only America has this. Yeah. And when you go somewhere else, you won't have it freedom or,

Sam (25:02):

Oh, that was said so many times to me when I was here, when I first moved here, was just how free America was. And I was so confused by the statements, and I get it in some ways that it was one of the earlier countries to adopt or these attempt to adopt freedom for everyone.

Tayla (25:21):

Mean

Sam (25:23):

Besides Western Europe.

Tayla (25:24):

It's a pretty new country too. Yeah. I mean, the thing is,

Sam (25:28):

Yeah, besides France, look, I have nothing good to say about France, except that they really are the birth birthplace of freedom. Okay.

Tayla (25:37):

Sorry for any French listeners.

Sam (25:40):

Yeah,

Tayla (25:46):

I think that's, again, it's the lack of self-awareness that I have where it's this belief that if America isn't the, pretty much the missionary to the world for freedom of religion or freedom of speech or whatever, then the world doesn't have it. And that's just not true.

Sam (26:07):

Yeah. I feel like, so one, and I'm probably going to get ragged on this, but one of the things that I struggle from the conservatives conservative side of the political spectrum in the United States is how conservatives feel like they can only look inward. So in terms of it is not good for a conservative to look at Europe, go look at other,

Tayla (26:29):

To get ideas or

Sam (26:31):

Resources or to follow or to be like, Hey, that's a good example. Let's be Spain in how they do X, Y, and Z. That's seen as a bad thing. We should only look at internal American exceptionalism and this is how America does it. Whereas I feel like if we just, were okay with looking externally, that would change a lot of things. It's not bad to recognize the good in other countries and say, Hey, we want that. And in fact, this is what I think the American ideal should be. Hey, I see that. Let's adopt it and do it better.

Tayla (27:05):

Yeah. I think that's the interesting thing is that innovation drawing from other brilliant people is an inherent part of true innovation. And so I feel like, again, a lot of these conservative people are actually very innovative entrepreneurial people. You would think that this would be a part of that culture, but for whatever reason isn't threatening to, I guess not put America on the top. America isn't already the top of this.

Sam (27:35):

Yeah. And then on the flip side of that three-sided coin though, I feel like there's a lot of people on the left that to bash on America. Do you know what I mean? Oh

Tayla (27:47):

Yeah, for sure. Where it's the opposite extreme where you're like, America sucks, America's when That's just a naive as well.

Sam (27:54):

Yeah. Hey, America sucks because it had slavery. Yes.

Tayla (27:58):

Everywhere.

Sam (27:59):

Everywhere had slavery everywhere. I mean, people were, had different values hundreds of years ago, and we have to be okay with that. And we can't say this is a bad country because it had the same values as so many other countries around the world at the time.

Tayla (28:13):

No. But then at the same time, you can say, yeah, a lot of other countries improve their values, and America was very behind in doing it. And that's like slavery is so much closer to our present day than anywhere else. So that's like another thing. So I think you need to be able to have that in between conversation where you're like, okay, this is a fact and it's okay to feel this or that way about that fact, but let's take the fact and grow towards the better America that everyone wants.

Sam (28:49):

Yeah. I think everyone does want a better America, but there seems to be these major blind spots on both sides of the political spectrum about how to get there. And they don't want to give space for one side to, they

Tayla (29:04):

Don't want to concede at all.

Sam (29:05):

Yeah. At all.

Tayla (29:07):

Well, let me pull up another one of our listeners voicemails so we can address that.

Ben (29:15):

Hey Sam and Tayla. This is Ben Gottfredson. I am a proud American. One thing I want to make sure people understand about people who are proud of this country is that we don't feel like we're better than anyone else or that the land is any better, but that the ideas that we believe in here are ideas that would benefit the whole world. If you look at how young America is as a country compared to of the world and how far we've come, you can see that the freedom that we have has got us far and is hopefully exponentially going to get us even further. I would sum it up with on the logical argument of capitalism, freedom of speech, those types of things have really helped us succeed. And then there's, for those of the listeners that are religious, obviously the freedom of religion, spreading the gospel and what you believe is really what makes America so special. So while we shouldn't feel like we're better than anyone else from a person to person basis, the foundations of our country are what I would say more fortunate and what would benefit the rest of the world to have.

Tayla (30:32):

So one thing that I like that Ben said was that considering how new the country is, it is true that the length of time between the country being created, and this is America, the United States of America, and the current freedoms and values that it has now is quite short in comparison to the rest of the world with its history. Again, there'll be some communities that will argue that just because it was there in paper doesn't mean that it was there in practicing culture. Sure. Because Native American issues and slavery, civil rights and civil rights. But it is true, again, considering that the country's like just over 200 years, 300 years old.

Sam (31:19):

Yeah. We're coming up on 300,

Tayla (31:21):

Coming up on 300 years old. The strides between the inception of the country and what we have now, being at least somewhat on par with the rest of the world is very quick and very cool.

Sam (31:34):

Yeah. I think he's also right that the things that, it's kind of like the Jeff Daniels things we're talking about, Hey, we did all these big great, amazing things for me, America's heyday, the height of the difference between America and the rest of the world was after World War ii, right after where there was just this time of innovation, there was this time of industry, there was this time of a lot more international trade, and the United States led the way. So it was definitely, the world is a better place because of that. America, I'm worried that because of the successes of the past, you forget about, we still need to do big great things moving forward, and if we don't recognize where we're falling short right now, we won't be able to do that. I think, though, so Ben had some good points. The freedom of religion and the freedom of of speech are both very important things that have made America great. But it's also, we need to recognize that those things have existed in Western Europe and other parts of the world a long time ago as well.

Tayla (32:50):

Even in Asia. I mean there 300 bc we have Zoroastrianism. And that empire in that area had already guaranteeing or allowing for just freedom of conscience and freedom of religion. That's not just Western Europe either. There's a lot of places in the world that before Christ came to the Earth even that they were practicing this. So it is true, and I think it's important to recognize that the current freedom of religion or freedom of speech that we have now is not new or unique to the United States. Not only in how it's currently practiced, because many, many, many countries also practice those freedoms, but also in its inception and the ideas that the people who truly forged the way. Now, I will say that the founding fathers, as far as the Bill of Rights that they drafted, and the manner of setting up the democracy, I would say huge innovators in when it comes to trying to guarantee freedoms for citizens and protect them.

Sam (33:52):

I really like the United States origin story, storied, which is, oh my

Tayla (33:57):

Gosh, it's the

Sam (33:58):

Best, which is the founding fathers were really trying to start a nation that was start, that was for the people. For the people, which was different. Usually how other nation nations came about was because of people gaining power and then building up big armies and then taking over whatever they could, and then basically

Tayla (34:18):

Whatever they happened to allow the citizens.

Sam (34:21):

So I do think that that start did make a difference. So even though that those similar rights have been around other places, I think you just had this big collective push, Hey, we are the people that run this country. The citizens run the country, not a king or a president or this other rich person. We are the ones that are governing ourselves and we are electing officials that are supposed to represent us. And

Tayla (34:50):

Yeah. Well, I think part of why this idea of freedom of religion is so ingrained is because that is before even the Revolutionary War, people leaving other parts of the world seeking religious freedom, the pilgrims and stuff is a part of its origin story, even before it became an independent nation, is that that's why people came here, is to seek that freedom. And that's been ingrained and told to kids from when they were little. And I think the problem is just a little bit that the context is not there. And so it feels like, because again, America's so isolated, if anyone came from somewhere else to come here for freedom, it means that there wasn't freedom anywhere else really. In reality, wherever they were coming from didn't have the freedoms, and then they came to someone that they're dead. They could have gone to a few places to get those freedoms, but they came to the states. So again, it's just true and it's missing context, I guess, maybe.

Sam (35:49):

So do you think America's great?

Tayla (35:52):

I do. I

Sam (35:53):

Do. And to you, what makes America great?

Tayla (36:00):

I think whether it's practiced in the right way or not, I think America is great because of how hard everyone tries or cares thinks about. They're very engaged citizens, I would say, for the most part. And that's partially due to the patriotism. Everyone is really engaged with making sure that they know what's going on and that they're involved with it. Again, whether in practice that's the most effective ways to be informed, et cetera, that's a different thing. But I love how much Americans care that a passion and aze that maybe isn't found in some of these older countries the same way.

Sam (36:40):

Yeah. Because the older countries maybe it's just like, well, this is just the way it is until there's a revolution. But

Tayla (36:48):

What about

Sam (36:48):

You? Yeah, I think America is great. To me, what makes America great is I like the phrase, the land of opportunity.

Tayla (36:59):

Well, Ben spoke about that, the capitalistic ideals here.

Sam (37:02):

Yeah. I think this is a birthplace of a lot of creativity when it comes to entrepreneurship, businesses, being able to take care of your family in any way that you want to,

Tayla (37:16):

Can figure

Sam (37:17):

People come from all around the world to start businesses here because they want to come join the hub of where all this innovation's happening. Obviously it happens all around the world, but I just feel

Tayla (37:29):

Like it is special.

Sam (37:30):

Yeah. I just feel like that mindset here is if you work really hard and you are innovative and you are smart in what you're doing, is that there's an opportunity for you here in the United States where you might not get that elsewhere.

Tayla (37:43):

Yeah. I think that's very true, because that idea of the American dream exists for a reason. It's not that we just fabricated this American dream idea out of thin air. It's there because so many people have lived that. In fact, the Oscars that just happened on Sunday, oh gosh, how can I not remember his name? The guy that won best supporting actor. He was the kid in Indiana Jones.

Sam (38:10):

Oh, yeah. He was also in In CTO Man or something.

Tayla (38:14):

Yes. Kay Hue. Kwan. Yeah. He spoke about that in his acceptance speech. He spoke about how he came as a refugee on a boat and lived at a tent, and now he's winning an Oscar, and he just says like, I am living the American dream. And the American dream is complicated. There's a lot of different factors that can go in, but ultimately the fact that that does exist and it can happen and it could happen to anyone. I love that.

Sam (38:45):

Yeah. I think we also need to recognize that that dream is not for everyone. I think True. I think a lot of people would love to just have a stable job, be able to work as little as possible, be able to pay your bills and spend as much time with your family and live a simple life. And I feel like that's, the United States is a hard place to do that

Tayla (39:03):

Currently. Very into the hustle, for sure. Yeah.

Sam (39:06):

So I think we have to think about ways either to accommodate for that or people that wants to live that should feel like they have the ability to look elsewhere.

Tayla (39:20):

Yeah. I think that's exactly what you're saying is it's recognizing that the American dream is in everyone's dream, just like you said, that people will prioritize different things, and so they might go somewhere else that also prioritizes those things that that's not a crazy idea. In fact, it would probably be very helpful for more people to go somewhere where their values match the culture of the

Sam (39:47):

Area. Oh, yeah. I wonder if there's this, there's just a better way to do that within the United States, certain states that are more accommodating to that sort of a lifestyle, and we culturally think that it's okay to do that sort of stuff. Go move to the middle of Montana.

Tayla (40:05):

Oh, yeah. No, I think there definitely are because the country is so diverse, but the problem does come in with the country is so huge, and the state's rights versus federal rights is complicated. And so though you could try and sequester yourself into a little area or a state that really represents your values, you will inevitably be affected by the powers that be in DC regardless. And so I don't think until there is a way to balance American ideals with the social programs required to support people in all walks of life, I just don't know that it can happen the way that it should. I don't know. What do you think?

Sam (40:46):

I know that's a really good point. It sounds like that I'm converting you to be a state's rights person. I

Tayla (40:51):

Know. No,

Sam (40:51):

No. Come on. No state's rights.

Tayla (40:54):

No. I mean, again, it's the wrong with state's rights. I do find it so bizarre though, that you could be in one country and something could be illegal and you could go to jail for one thing and then literally in the same country. It's totally fine. That's so weird. You have to admit that.

Sam (41:13):

It's bizarre. Bizarre. It's only weird if you forget that states are the same size as countries in Europe,

Tayla (41:21):

But it's also not No, not only weird when you do that, it's literally weird because it's this it true. They're huge. The country's huge, but it is the same country. Literally. You could a criminal in one part of the country and just a regular old Joe down the street in another, just by luck, I mean, we live in Utah, right? I mean, did you ever hear about that law that it was illegal to kill a Mormon until kind of recently? No, in Missouri. Yeah, that apparently that's like an old

Sam (41:49):

Law for, were those on the back day kind things?

Tayla (41:51):

Yeah, they just didn't strike it from the state legislature. So stuff like that is so weird to me. I don't have a problem with it. Maybe I do, but either way, it's just I'm fine with the balance, but I do find it, that's why we have such issues is this walk. But I get it. If we were to completely give states the rights, then they could pretty much be their own country

Sam (42:12):

Pretty close to, but it would be Europe where you have a centralized government for defense and centralized economy and using the same currency. So

Tayla (42:23):

You're saying that all the states should succeed from the United States Nation and then form an international conglomerate unit like the European Union? No. Sounds like a great idea.

Sam (42:35):

It's not what I'm saying. I

Tayla (42:36):

Know

Sam (42:37):

It's going back to how the United States was originally formed, which was that it was supposed to have that balance between states rights versus federal rights, and that the federal was never meant to have this much power.

Tayla (42:49):

Yeah. I mean, we're getting into a whole other wars, but I feel like it's interesting that maybe it wasn't meant to have that much power, but how else are you supposed to actually unify as a country if you're not actually operating as a country?

Sam (43:01):

I think it's okay to not unify as a country on certain things like human rights.

Tayla (43:06):

Oh my God. Sleeping outside, not even on the couch. Get out. All right. Let's listen to another voicemail from another one of our listeners.

Jackie (43:17):

It's always kind of bothered me that Americans tend to believe that this is the freest, the bravest, the safest, the best country in all of the world. And if we don't buy into that idea that somehow makes us unpatriotic or unAmerican, I don't think it's fair to say that America is without flaw. In fact, I think it's very naive and almost kind of stunts our growth as a nation to buy into that idea that we can't make improvements at all. So it's definitely always bothered me that I somehow get looked down as on as unpatriotic, just because I think that there could be some adjustments made.

Tayla (44:08):

Love that thought.

Sam (44:09):

Yeah. No, Jackie is 100% right. We are on team Jackie right now, just kind of how I feel.

Tayla (44:16):

Yeah. One thing that she said is something we've talked about, and I find it interesting that she kind of used the same phrasing, is that it's frustrating to be perceived as unpatriotic or unAmerican for acknowledging flaws or issues with the country. And I do feel like it's almost the opposite. I'm trying to think of an example of this. So a while ago, so I started just kind of attending as a hobby, other different denominations in churches, just to experience them, to understand them. I think it's a really cool thing to do. And I took a friend with me and she said her mom reached out to her and was really concerned that her faith wasn't strong because she was looking at other churches. And in my brain, I thought to myself, well, I feel like it's the opposite. I feel like if you feel strong enough to expose yourself to things on the outside, your faith is way more stable and way more strong.

(45:18):

And if you're afraid to look outside, then you must not have very strong faith if you feel like seeing other ways would shake that, if that makes sense. And I feel like it's a similar idea here where I feel like it is a patriotic act to look and expose yourself and look at outside at how other people are doing things, and honestly, compare that to how we do things here so that there can be an exchange of ideas. Because true, like Ben said, we a lot, America has a lot to offer the world, but the true ist same in the inverse.

Sam (45:55):

Yeah. No, I'm 100% on board with that. I wouldn't love it if it was just part of the culture, kind of like it is in Europe where you finish high school and you go and travel, you go travel for three months, go six months, go do something with your life for a bit, go experience another culture and then come back with things that you've experienced and learned and start your life from there.

Tayla (46:17):

Yeah. I find it, it's a necessary discomfort to be out of your element and be where you don't speak the language and you, you know what I mean? And you're operating and seeing, okay, how do other people do it? And I do feel that generally there's a reluctance to expose yourself to that discomfort probably because just lack of exposure here as well, by nature of it's isolation. But I do think it's healthy and would be important, and I wish more people would do it. So I'm going to call you out an example. Okay. How did you talk about Europe before you went there?

Sam (46:56):

Oh my gosh. I thought Europe was trash.

Tayla (46:59):

Why?

Sam (47:01):

Because I know. So I didn't really think it was trash, but it just, Europe just seemed like

Tayla (47:05):

Mek

Sam (47:06):

Mek and it was just, there was nothing special about or unique about it. And I knew I was saying those things in ignorance because I've traveled to many places around the world, just never Europe for some reason. It's just been one of those places that I've just been meh.

Tayla (47:22):

Well, so you heard from me and from other people like, oh, Europe's amazing though. So you would hear that and still be meh. Why do you think that is?

Sam (47:31):

It's probably the stereotype of when people go to the Europe. They say, now that I've been to Europe. Excellent. So

Tayla (47:39):

You just didn't want to be part of

Sam (47:40):

The stereotype? No. Yeah, I just tease it, but I said that a lot when I got back. I was like, now that I've been to Europe,

Tayla (47:45):

Yeah, no, but truly. So when you actually went, how did it change things for you?

Sam (47:50):

I didn't travel all around Europe, so I can't speak for the whole experience, but I had spent just a short amount of time in Spain and then I You

Tayla (47:58):

Mean Portugal?

Sam (47:59):

Short amount of time in Spain. And then I spent literally the whole time driving around. I went, drove all over Portugal. Oh yeah, you through, yeah. Literally drove pretty much all of Portugal and stopped wherever I could and looked at everything I could and experienced that I could, the way everything I could. And I was genuinely surprised just how awesome it was. Obviously, there's parts of it that I hated. I hate big cities, so that's a lot of why I thought about Europe was like, you think about London, you think about Paris, you think about Belgium and all these big cities, and then just go like, Ugh, there's so much concrete. But outside of that, in the country, in the suburbs and by the ocean, I really liked that part of Portugal. And the food was great. The people were great. The weather was great, the architecture was great. I mean, everything was just another variation of living in California or living in New York, or people are people all around the world. And that's what it felt like, just it didn't feel foreign to me in a lot of ways.

Tayla (49:08):

And that's what I would hope for most Americans is that somehow the rest of the world can be less foreign and less scary and less us versus them because it's very much just like, oh, literally we're just global citizens. And I think social media is doing a little bit for that, or digital globalization is doing it a little bit for that where you're, when people are following people on TikTok and they like their sense of humor, or they're dancing even though they don't speak English, for example, or whatever. But I wish I could put everyone on a plane and just be, experience it just to expose yourself to it, and then you can think of it whatever you want. But I think it's very difficult to form an opinion on how you feel about the rest of the world if you haven't been.

Sam (49:55):

Yeah, exactly. I agree with that. Mean, even when I was in China, the people that we spent time with and spoke with there were pretty much just like us, and we really got to talk about the real differences between most of, at least between China and the United States was our leadership in our government. They're the ones that have problems with each other. For the most part, the citizens. We just want to work time with our family, recreate travel. We don't care about world domination and gathering all these resources. So yeah, it's nice to connect with people from all around the world like that.

Tayla (50:32):

Yeah, and I would say that's my main kind of thought about American exceptionalism, is that, I mean, is America exceptional in a lot of ways? It is. However, I think if you humanize the rest of the world outside of America, it very quickly helps you to just be a little more self-aware about where you really fit in and a little more appreciative of what the rest of the world has to offer in addition to what you have to offer.

Sam (51:00):

Yeah. I agree. Thank you for listening to

Tayla (51:10):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (51:13):

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