Immigration

In this episode, Sam and Tayla talk about the complicated topic of immigration, including dealing with the issue from human rights, political, and practical lenses. They engage with listener comments and questions on the issue and talk about the details surrounding each of their experiences as first-generation immigrants. 

Transcript

Tayla (00:00:11):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:00:14):

We're your hosts husband and wife duo, Sam

Tayla (00:00:16):

And Tayla

Sam (00:00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment.

Tayla (00:00:22):

So I took him to the doctor literally for the fifth time in a week today. And he still has an ear infection, A double ear infection.

Sam (00:00:33):

Yeah, it's pretty sad. He takes it pretty well though.

Tayla (00:00:37):

He does. Poor little eight month old.

Sam (00:00:40):

Yeah. By the way if you can hear singing in the distance it it's like eight 30 at night and we've put Ella down to sleep and she sings most nights for a little bit.

Tayla (00:00:52):

She did. She said she didn't want to sleep. And I said that's fine, but you can just lie in bed and do whatever you want.

Sam (00:00:57):

<laugh> sing it is. I

Tayla (00:00:58):

Guess she is. Oh gosh. This has been one of those weeks. Yeah, just And another doctor visit tomorrow. Poor buddy. Anyway Valentine's Day tomorrow as well. I wanted to say happy Valentine's Day. This is coming out, this episode's coming out.

Sam (00:01:16):

Oh yeah. Happy Valentine's Day everyone. Yeah.

Tayla (00:01:19):

Hope you do something special for yourself and if you have significant others or people you love, do something special for them too. What have you prepared for me that is special?

Sam (00:01:31):

We're going out to dinner.

Tayla (00:01:33):

Oh, you prepared that?

Sam (00:01:35):

Yes.

Tayla (00:01:36):

Lies. Lies. I actually for once thought ahead this year and got a reservation like three weeks ago when there were actually reservations to have still. Mm-hmm. So I'm so happy you can pay though. How about that?

Sam (00:01:51):

Thank you

Tayla (00:01:52):

<laugh>. All right, onto the topic for the day. Well, let me just do my spiel. Okay. So this discussion will be a, I mean think they tend to be a little more US focused, our discussion because we're in the us This one probably a little more, but I think we can globalize it a little. But statistics are US based mostly. So the United States has the highest immigrant immigrant population in the world at 50.6 million as of 2020 which equates to approximately 15.3% of the total US population and 18% of international immigrants worldwide. The number of immigrants in the US today is more than five times that it was in 1960. And the US immigrant population is also notably diverse With the country welcoming new arrivals from more than 200 countries and territories every year. Becoming a naturalized citizen or a permanent resident of the United States is not only a long and tedious process, but also an expensive one.

(00:03:04):

The whole process could cost you anywhere from between 4,000 to $12,000 per person and can often become much more than that. Costs include legal fees, high application fees, medical costs for mandatory medical exams, naturalization fees and malt. The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that in January, 2022, there were 11 million, 11.35 million illegal immigrants in the US In January, the average number of unaccompanied children in C P B custody was 334 per day compared to an average of FIF 570 per day in December. So that number has decreased this year. So that's from January this year and December last year. The significant decrease in border patrol can encounters well beyond that which is expected on seasonal trends is indicative of the success of the measures announced by the administration on January 5th, 2023, expanding safe and orderly, lawful processes for migration. So not only is this an important issue for most citizens of the world in a globalizing environment, but certainly for us as first generation immigrants. So babe, what do you know about immigration?

Sam (00:04:16):

Man? Everything.

Tayla (00:04:18):

Yeah. Okay. So if you were to describe your immigration process in one word, what would it be?

Sam (00:04:28):

One word. Whew.

Tayla (00:04:30):

I know it's a hard one.

Sam (00:04:33):

Traumatic.

Tayla (00:04:33):

Traumatic. Wow.

Sam (00:04:35):

Yeah, it's probably one of the most traumatic ex experiences our family experienced.

Tayla (00:04:41):

Do you want to expound on that?

Sam (00:04:43):

Oh yeah. So we expatriated from South Africa to the United States. Yeah. So in 98, the year 1998. In the 19 hundreds, Ooh

Tayla (00:04:57):

<laugh> the 1990s.

Sam (00:04:59):

So our family moved to the US from South Africa and it was a very sudden move and it was very much a basically a whole life changing experience for our whole family. It wasn't a smooth process where there was a landing spot here and a smooth transition into something else, but basically it was almost refugee kind of status moving. It was closed up shop in South Africa. Didn't tell anyone. Brought two suitcases each and a couple thousand dollars. Yeah, I think it was like $2,000 or something like that and came here without workers visas or green card or anything like that. So everything was, you were on

Tayla (00:05:44):

A's

Sam (00:05:45):

Visa on a visitor's visa. Yeah. So

Tayla (00:05:53):

The other thing in the 1990s is that it wasn't very easy to be in contact with people back home, right?

Sam (00:06:00):

No, you

Tayla (00:06:01):

Really, once you left you, unless you emailed each other, which wasn't that common probably then either, you just didn't really have contact minus paying high fees for long distance calls, which you were poor, so you can't really do.

Sam (00:06:15):

And what made it even worse? So we landed here, we stayed in a one bedroom basement provided by

Tayla (00:06:22):

The six of you. Did.

Sam (00:06:24):

Geez. And very kindly by my dad's brother to help us at least have something here. And the local church congregation donated clothes and all sorts of stuff to us so that we're, it's a bunch of teenagers and it's boys growing. So you

Tayla (00:06:43):

Had school uniform and you probably didn't have a lot of clothes

Sam (00:06:45):

Anyway and it was free. It was winter. True. So we didn't have clothes that were adequate for the culture and it was very hard.

Tayla (00:07:00):

So beyond, beyond coming and arriving here, the actual immigration process was traumatic, not just coming.

Sam (00:07:08):

So the actual immigration process was so difficult. In fact, that's why we came here on visitors visas is because it was at the time a very hard and long and most likely you wouldn't be processed to be able to get a green card here in the United States. It was a very rare thing for South African to be able to come to the move to the United States. We had barely been had the sanctions removed or I can't remember all the different things, but South Africa wasn't very welcomed on the world's stage.

Tayla (00:07:42):

You don't really want white South Africans at that time

Sam (00:07:44):

And not at that time, no. It came with a lot of baggage. So a lot of things happened. So my mom's mom passed away within just a couple months of us moving here. We couldn't,

Tayla (00:07:55):

And she was back in South Africa. She

Sam (00:07:56):

Was back in South Africa.

Tayla (00:07:57):

My word. That must have been so hard.

Sam (00:08:01):

The whole thing was just really hard. We had a lot of support though. So that was one of the nice things. We moved here to Utah and the people were very kind and very welcoming in terms of, hey, there's people that need help. So that was one of the great things was the local people. But in terms of the whole process, it was years and years and years until my parents finally got workers visas and then years and years and years until they got moved to GreenCon status. And that was actually only because my brothers married American citizens and

Tayla (00:08:33):

Then they applied for your parents?

Sam (00:08:35):

They applied for my parents. So it was just this really long and expensive,

Tayla (00:08:40):

Difficult

Sam (00:08:41):

And scary process. I actually, <laugh> went on a trip back to South Africa in 2012 and at the time I was on a green card, but apparently at one point I hit a deportation probably from the whole way that we immigrated to the United States. So I coming back into jfk. So from

Tayla (00:09:05):

Even though you have a green card? Yeah,

Sam (00:09:07):

I was still on another list, so I'd cleared the process so I was able to legally get my green card, but apparently I hadn't been cleared off some other list. Maybe not exactly sure how it all works beyond the scenes. But yeah, I got taken into a room and then I got taken, waited a while, I thought I was going to miss my connecting flights and then I got interviewed by someone else and he looked through all my documents and he explained the situation, says, look, I've got you, you've shown me your green card, I looked you up, you do have your green card, you're in the system here. But just so you know, you are on a deportation list on this one on this list. So I'm assuming there's just been a clerical error, so I'm taking you off this list. And that was the end of it.

Tayla (00:09:45):

And that's the worst part about the immigration process. It really just depends on who you, it's like official roulette, which official do you have and do they take kindly on you and do they, because there's not always official guidelines behind everything they do. They can use a lot of latitude and judgment and mood stuff to just decide your entire fate.

Sam (00:10:07):

Look, I just turned on my American accent and it was like he let me straight through the gates.

Tayla (00:10:13):

Can you? Yeah. And you were white blonde men.

Sam (00:10:15):

Yeah, so it worked out well for me at that point. Yeah.

Tayla (00:10:19):

So you said that in Utah everyone was super welcoming and happy to help and stuff. And so Utah is like it's definitely a more conservative state and so I would say is total trope. So just

Sam (00:10:38):

Correctly. So we're also Mormon, so for

Tayla (00:10:41):

Sure. But I guess my question was, oh, sorry. Yeah, my question was do you feel like the congregation or the community would've taken as kindly on you and been as supportive and willing to help you adjust if you didn't speak English for example?

Sam (00:10:57):

No, and that was the point I was going to make is that I, because we're Mormon, because we literally identify with the community, it seemed like we are already in a way part of the community just from a different part of the world, very welcoming. So it was like they could see themselves in us very easily. It was very easily for them to see, oh, they're going to assimilate to our culture, they'll fit right in. They have our same values and they're going to add to the community. It was very easy for them to identify with that because they already see us as part of the end group. So no, I think that if you're seen as part of the out group, I think there is that hesitation. Well is this good for our community? Not sure. Yeah, again, I dunno if I agree with that, but I can have empathy for those sorts of feelings in other parts of the country or with a different kind of immigrants.

Tayla (00:11:49):

Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think what word I would to describe our immigration. Traumatic really does describe it because it's complicated and just fearful I would say is maybe my mine. And that that's the funny thing is we actually came from the get-go a very legal way and it did not make things easier to be honest. It was very long arduous, ridiculously expensive, and us abiding by the rules didn't really earn us many points as far as speeding along the process or even ease of the process once we were in it to try and naturalize. And so that was really frustrating. But yeah, it was very scary because I remember thinking if I do something dummy enough as a teenager, my whole family's going to get kicked out of the country how I felt. And you're just living with that fear all the time. We're also, my dad was the only one legal to work, and so we are literally at the mercy of him and whoever employs him, which is how he got his visa to be here. And fortunately they were very supportive and wanting us to immigrate and that's why we got that visa. But it was scary to have no power pretty much over your situation once you're here on that kind of visa.

Sam (00:13:08):

I kid you not even thinking about this topic. I thought, should I censor how the immigration process worked for us? Because I was like,

Tayla (00:13:18):

Just in case they send you out, they're

Sam (00:13:20):

Going to take away my the thing. But obviously we went through all the legal steps to make sure that we are now in status. So if you're,

(00:13:28):

I still a citizen now. I'm a citizen now for quite a number of years now, but I have still stress that anxiety. I'm like, I got my citizenship in 2017 and after I was a citizen, I think I must have misheard the statement, but I was supposed to, I thought I was supposed to get something in the mail or something that was supposed to come and nothing ever came. I was like, I don't know if I'm still a citizen or not. That was the whole thing was, I actually don't know. I got sworn in the whole thing and then I was expecting something in the mail and nothing ever came. So no, for a while I was like, I don't even know if I'm a citizen. And the whole process, I mean 20 something years now and I still have anxiety about the whole process. I like to this day, in fact, my younger brother, he's not even a citizen yet, he's still on his green card.

Tayla (00:14:18):

Wow. And he's got a kid, he's been here since he's been here. He's been nine with

Sam (00:14:24):

Nine and he's 34.

Tayla (00:14:27):

Wow. And he got that green card through marriage?

Sam (00:14:33):

Yeah.

Tayla (00:14:34):

Wow.

Sam (00:14:34):

No, I think he got a green card

Tayla (00:14:36):

Maybe with your parents,

Sam (00:14:37):

Through my parents or something else. But yeah, it might have been a, I don't know which minor at the time. Yeah, I don't remember which way he got it, but he probably has a green card through his wife at this point. But yeah, isn't that crazy?

Tayla (00:14:48):

Yeah, I mean the crazy thing is actually there were quite a few immigrants right around the time that we immigrated, obviously not from South Africa, but from all over. And I remember it was just scary to talk about it. And then whenever friends would, they just had no idea how their own immigration process even worked. And then the older I got and the more into the political sphere my peers and companions became, as we became teenagers and went to college, they would have such strong opinions on something and I was like, I just don't think you even know how the process works, which who can really blame them because it's that weird and complicated and unintuitive and stupid.

Sam (00:15:30):

Yeah. I mean, but yeah. Yeah. So along with all the paperwork, so I took over all my paperwork once I was 22, I think I took ownership of how to go through the process from there. So I actually got pretty good at doing legal paperwork because you had to read every line and research against this thing and that thing and to be able to feel like you've done it correctly. And even then you're like, alright, here's the check, here's the paperwork, cross your fingers and then you just wait. Yeah, no, check your status kind. Well, I think there was a check your status thing, but that really wasn't very functional. And so you just kind of sit there for yours wondering, hopefully my workers visas now I'm moving over to this stage of the green card. Hopefully this temporary green card needs to change to the permanent green card. And I, I've sending my students an application, I don't know. And then the interview

Tayla (00:16:26):

Process. Yeah. Oh my word. It's so intimidating. I tried to just be normal and polite to my citizenship. Interviewer. I think my green card interviewer, I've blocked that out, my memory because it was also just scary as hell. But the green card one, I was just there alone. This was just last year was it last year? 2021. And I just tried to be normal. It's not, I was trying to suck up to him or anything. I was just like, how are you? And just wouldn't even look at me, wouldn't even smile. And I wouldn't say that he was a rude person. I was just like, there's just something about this whole process. I remember not feeling like I could in the waiting room, look at my phone. I just literally sat looking at the clock, trying not to look suspicious.

Sam (00:17:14):

Don't be suspicious, don't be suspicious. So yeah, the legal way to do it, and I mean the legal process is hard. The paperwork's hard. It's expensive. But honestly, the hardest part for me was just one how poor we were. Like, yeah, I mean, so I would babysit, I'd babysit. I was a trustworthy young adult male babysitter. And then I'd start doing yard work and then I always had something that I was doing just to earn some sort of pocket money, some sort of cash, some something. And because my parents couldn't get normal proper jobs, that was like, because you're so many different laws against hiring immigrants in terms of over a US citizen. So you literally had to those jokes about I used to be a doctor in whatever the country I from. That's real. That's a real thing. So yeah, it's been a very long, difficult process in terms of just one economic to social status was difficult. There are some perks like, oh, you're a foreigner. There's an interesting side. But honestly, the school part of it, so like I said, the local congregation and the church, great, going to high school, awful because you're different. Doesn't matter how you're different, all of a sudden you're different. And so it's just an opportunity to be like, you're different. So yeah, we're going to treat you different. And it was awful.

Tayla (00:18:38):

I remember being in government classes and being like, oh man, they're teaching this as if I have been through years of US history and US government leading up to this from elementary school on. And I, so I had to just kind of catch up. But I remember this very ironic moment where they were teaching about taxation without representation or something. And I just remember thinking, are you kidding? Because that's literally immigrants. Yeah, not really. We're taxed the exact, if you're not a citizen, you're taxed the exact same way as anyone else in the country, but you don't have those benefits. You don't get to vote. You don't get to say in who represents you. Even though if I had an issue, I'd have to go to that representative. And I did try a couple times actually, and I was just like, wow. How ironic. Taxation without representation still a thing. Still a thing today,

Sam (00:19:33):

Still a thing today. But yeah, in terms of the people, I mean, I'm there. There's so many kind examples and stories in our life that people have supported us. So that's something that I'll always be grateful for. And in terms of, I will always try to, what's the phrase, pay it forward in terms of other immigrants trying to come to the country. You know, try to also support in ways that you can.

Tayla (00:19:57):

And I think it's, for me, it's especially socially the mo, and obviously I'm friends with a lot of mm-hmm immigrants from a lot of countries just by nature of my employment and school and stuff. And the moment I hear, oh, this person's from Zimbabwe, or this person's from even Brazil, or you're like, oh, do you have family around? Okay, you come over here on Christmas or you come over, you know,

Sam (00:20:16):

Share in the trauma you

Tayla (00:20:17):

Do <laugh>. Just help them not feel so alone, especially when they don't have family around. But yeah, especially the poorness, especially when that's not what you came from. We came from, oh, we were fine in south, I would say more than fine. We were doing well and when we came here, I remember my, it's so sad for me to think about actually is I remember my mom, she would get five of the same newspaper so that she could get five of the same coupon per issue and she would just clip and just try and find any way to save us. And again, all my clothes were donated from people on the congregation. I remember getting onto the high school basketball team and just absolutely crying when I realized that the fee to be on the high school basketball team was $200. And I was just like, I don't know where my parents are going to get that.

(00:21:16):

And they did. And then my mom would just be so sad because it would cost $5 to come and watch me play each time. And even that, we just didn't have it. They figured it out, but I just don't know how my parents did it. And I feel like that's the main thing is obviously it was traumatic for me as a child, but I cannot imagine being a parent in that situation and trying to balance the reality of your situation with your kids with not trying to traumatize them and make them worry, but it's lonely, it's scary. I think my parents really struggled socially as well, just because the culture's so different. They figured it out now, but I mean you could make good friends, but not close, not the same. So I really appreciate my parents and I feel bad that I gave them such a hard time about bringing me here when I realize, obviously now how much they sacrificed and how much I've gotten because of their

Sam (00:22:13):

Sacrifice. Yeah, no, really, my parents too just pretty much sacrificed everything to get us here. My <laugh>, my mom, she has a master's degree, does counseling, and she was basically a house cleaner and a nanny to just have any sort of money and she was just treated garbage by the home or the mom that was having her do all this clean and stuff. And she was just like, why do I have to do all this after? Or at

Tayla (00:22:45):

Least be treated that way, right? Yeah. It's one thing I think that's something that I really love about immigrants is for the most part they're very happy. They're not afraid of hard work, but to be treated like garbage on top of it and especially when how much more, not only that you're capable of, that you've worked for the credentials for Yeah, it's got to be so frustrating. So I want to kind of pivot because this is going to be an interesting episode because it's our first episode introducing voicemails, and so we have a few voicemails from listeners that either have a comment on immigration or a question that they interesting ask us about immigration,

Sam (00:23:26):

And I haven't heard these, so this is going to be a live reaction to these.

Tayla (00:23:31):

Okay, so I'm going to play the first one.

Kelsey (00:23:34):

How many years did it take your family to be able to come become permanent residents in the us?

Sam (00:23:42):

How many years did it take? At was at least a decade to

Tayla (00:23:45):

Become a permanent resident?

Sam (00:23:46):

To become a permanent

Tayla (00:23:47):

Resident. Not even a

Sam (00:23:48):

Citizen. It's not even become a citizen. A permanent resident was at least a decade.

Tayla (00:23:51):

Yes, I can tell you exactly. So

Sam (00:23:58):

Six

Tayla (00:23:59):

Years <laugh>, sorry, if you guys can hear this singing, really going for it right now. It took us 12 years I think to become permanent residents. Yeah,

Sam (00:24:15):

Yeah. And you got that through the green card lottery, correct? Yeah. Of all things.

Tayla (00:24:20):

That's the crazy thing. So for those of you that don't know, and every time I've told an American citizen about the, the fact that this exists, they're like, what? So there's a thing that exists that's called the green cod lottery that anyone can go ahead. I mean it costs a bit of money and it's technical to apply, but you can just throw your name in the hat and they just award streamline fast line, this green card status for you if you happen to be selected. They select so many names per year to win the green card lottery. So we had applied for permanent residency I think pretty much as soon as we were eligible to within a few years of being here and just waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And then my mom wins the green cod lottery and we're like, okay, I guess that's how you did it. Even though we had applied and spent so much money on that application. But I will say winning the green cod lottery still, you still pay. Yeah,

Sam (00:25:20):

It's the green card. It's not like you win money, exact same cost. You just get through the application process. That's it. Right? Yeah, no, that's the funniest thing is yeah, that really is. I think at the time for South Africans, literally one of the only ways that I heard of people coming over from South Africa was through the green college lottery because actually getting here and then getting established and then getting green cards is like you heard from us and what you guys would've been through too, which is it might not ever come.

Tayla (00:25:53):

Yeah. And my mom always has this theory that they kind of just take a bunch of names from the top of the pile or that are just about to be processed for a green card and then give them the green cards to the lottery just because the system is so broken and it's going to make things easier for

Sam (00:26:11):

Them. But the thing is we don't even know that. Who knows? These are just theories that I've just made out of thin air because we actually have no clue because we have no insight into it. We don't even know how they pick.

Tayla (00:26:19):

Yeah, I mean it's called a diversity lottery, but are diversity in what? Just country? I don't know. Who knows? Yeah,

Sam (00:26:26):

I have no clue. We have no idea.

Tayla (00:26:28):

But that's how long it took us. You, so you said at least a decade and for us over a decade just to get the green card and then it takes hugely, depending on what kind of green card, whether you got it through marriage or whether you got it through another way, you either have to wait three years or five years or one year to then apply for citizenship.

Sam (00:26:48):

Yeah, and that's apply. That's not, that's

Tayla (00:26:49):

Apply and not just, yeah, you become a citizen. So we have another question from that same listener.

Kelsey (00:26:57):

How much did your parents or your family spend on their immigration process?

Tayla (00:27:04):

That's a good question.

Sam (00:27:07):

I actually don't know, but I do know that it's easy to ballpark it from just trying to memory $20,000 easily

Tayla (00:27:17):

Each or for your whole family?

Sam (00:27:18):

I think for the whole family, because you also have to understand my brothers okay, the nuclear family, I'd say easy up to 20 grand just on legal fees, application fees. And then I do know my mom had to fly to Canada at one point to then come back, so just the nuclear family. And then we've all individually spent five to 15 grand on immigration separately. Your

Tayla (00:27:45):

Own ones

Sam (00:27:45):

On top of that? Yeah,

Tayla (00:27:47):

Yeah. Oh, it's been in the thousands, so we have a family of seven, so that's one. We were all dependent young when my parents <laugh>, sorry, we keep hearing our daughters saying and it's really cute.

Sam (00:28:00):

I hope it's coming through though.

Tayla (00:28:01):

Yeah, it's really cute. So I know that we had to switch, we had to visa bounce quite a bit, so worker visa. Then I switched to a student visa and then I switched to a religious visa and then back to a student visa. Every switch of a visa costs hundreds and that's just me. My one brother did the same thing. My parents had to renew that visa too, and you'd have to renew it every three years or whatever. So that alone was thousands. Then obviously the complicated green card application, the legal fees as in the thousands, and then when it came finally time, we win the green card lottery and we find out it was $1,500 per family member just to apply. And that then more for that, I think the legal fees for the lawyer to prepare it, which my parents did. Not that we couldn't have done it, but because we're just

Sam (00:28:58):

So worried. Yeah, you

Tayla (00:28:59):

Get to that point, you're like, we can't take any chances. Yeah, exactly. And so it's in the, I would guess between 25 and 40 grand.

Sam (00:29:09):

Yeah, that sounds about right. So I want to hear your, so I want to hear your pathway again because mine was visitor's visa, then de and then dependent. So I was a dependent on

Tayla (00:29:20):

Worker's depend another worker's

Sam (00:29:22):

Visa dependent on a worker's visa and I think a bounced between my mom and my dad, depending on whose work is visa, because like you said, you have to, the workers visa is very short, has to reapply, and so just out of fear of losing status, you have to, yeah. So then I went to, I think it was F1 for the student then R one, which was the religious back to f1, and then I got a workers visa. You did? Yeah. No,

Tayla (00:29:50):

Wow, that's not

Sam (00:29:51):

Easy. No, it wasn't easy. And because I waited so long for the temporary green card in my first marriage

Tayla (00:30:00):

Because you had gotten

Sam (00:30:00):

Married? I had gotten married and it had taken years. It was just sitting in application that wild. So I applied for a workers visa at the same time and I got try get

Tayla (00:30:09):

Whichever one comes

Sam (00:30:10):

First. I did, and it was within a month or two of each other, which was the most hilarious thing. That's the worst. So I finally got the workers' visa. It's like here's your work permit.

Tayla (00:30:19):

So then you got a workers' visa, then the green card.

Sam (00:30:21):

Then the green card, which was temporary, I think it's only a two year temporary. And then I

Tayla (00:30:24):

Got, because it was through

Sam (00:30:25):

Marriage and then after that you get a permanent one, which I think is seven years or something, 10 years

Tayla (00:30:32):

Then, but you need

Sam (00:30:32):

To renew and then you can renew every year. And then I just, every 10

Tayla (00:30:35):

Years

Sam (00:30:35):

From that permanent green card, I then applied for citizenship

Tayla (00:30:39):

And became a citizen. So I was a dependent of a workers visa as well. We didn't come on a visitor's visa. We had, I mean as visitors, but so dependent of a workers visa. Then I was on an F1 as well as a student and then an R one as well as a missionary, and then back to an f1, and then my mom won the green card lottery and I got the green card as a dependent because we got it the week before I turned 21.

Sam (00:31:10):

Oh, that's right.

Tayla (00:31:11):

So I just squeaked in as a dependent and got my green card. In fact, all of us got it except for my older brother, which really sucked because we were just like, oh my gosh, rip. He was just barely older and he had been here since he was a young teenager as well. So we're like, that's the worst. Your family's not anyway and then a dual citizen now.

Sam (00:31:34):

Yeah,

Tayla (00:31:35):

You're a dual. And that's a whole other funny thing because I remember sitting there, I'm both countries know that this is a thing and they know that they're fine with it, but for some reason I need to in this ceremony say that I will not have guilty to any other country, even though everyone knows that I'm a citizen of two countries now. Yeah, it's such a common thing, but they make you feel like you're doing something wrong still. But I remember sitting throughout the ceremony, I was like, I better not say that I'm still a South African citizen, even though it's completely fine and legal to do. Yeah,

Sam (00:32:05):

I just had a memory. One of the interesting things is while when you're applying for, I forget which one, I think it's when you're applying for something, it was very early on. I was like, you signed No, me just, well, immigrants, yeah. You signed as a male, at least for conscription. For conscription, I sounded like when I was 15 or 16 or something ridiculous that I would do that if when I was 18 or that I would like if called to go fight for, I would, and it wasn't, not even I was a permanent resident at the time. It was just literally as part of the immigration process, you say, yeah, I'll go fight for the us. And you're like, okay, well

Tayla (00:32:43):

What else are you going to say? No. Yeah.

Sam (00:32:45):

So it was such a bizarre, bizarre thing to me. But I was like, okay, well the

Tayla (00:32:49):

Other thing that I thought was funny in that as well is I remember it's just such a cultural thing too. When I was in high school writers said We had moved here and they stood to do the pledge or whatever, and I was like, so I just stood, but I didn't put my hand or didn't say anything because obviously I don't pledge to the flag because I'm, I'm not a citizen. Yeah. So I just stood respectfully and people got so pissed off at me because they were like, you have to respect the, and I was like, can you imagine if someone just moved to South Africa just temporarily or honor just as a visitor's visa and I demanded that they pledge to my country that they're a visitor essentially of

Sam (00:33:33):

It's a little aggressive.

Tayla (00:33:35):

I was just mostly, you would never do it for another country. So why do you expect it? Yeah. Again, I always said the moment I'm a citizen, a hundred percent I will pledge the flag and you know, put my hand over my heart for the anthem, but it's when it's literally all my country and I would happily accept it when they would give it to me, but until that time I have a country that I'm a part of. Yeah, this is interesting. Okay, we have another listener, Ben, it's got some thoughts from him.

Ben (00:34:11):

Hey, this is Ben Gottfredson. I'm your number one fan and I'm conservative. I appreciate you guys pushing my views and how you guys are fair to both sides, but I just want to say about immigration that the system's broken. I don't think conservatives or liberals are really happy about it and I think it needs to be thrown away and made simple. I think it needs to be easier for people to get in and I think a lot of people want everybody to come here and then if the system's made easier, we can enforce the rules so the drugs and the criminals can't get through. So maybe oversimplifying things, but I think a lot of people feel that way on both sides.

Sam (00:34:59):

I really appreciate that point of view Ben and that's something that we haven't even got into yet, which is the political whole debate about this, right? No, we haven't. I know we just be talking about our experience,

Tayla (00:35:13):

But it's important that he says that because one thing I like that he said is that no side of the political spectrum is happy with the immigration system as it is, and I think that everyone for the most part thinks that this current system is so broken that it just literally needs a whole overhaul.

Sam (00:35:35):

A whole overhaul is needed and I think if you needed a sign to know that our political system is broken as well, this is it. As in true most people, most of the citizens can all agree that the immigration process is broken and that we want it fixed and we want it different. However, nothing's happening because it is, it's used as basically political capital basically. It's used as points, it's used as this talking points to be able to divide left and when we're actually pretty much 95% on the same page with how and who we want in this country.

Tayla (00:36:19):

Yeah. I think that the other issue though is that there's going to be a cost and a method that will have to happen to overhaul the current system in a way that is fair and humane. And I don't think that both sides necessarily agree on what they are willing to do for those in the interim. So for example, the people that are currently in process or gone through that process or currently undocumented, what do you do as you are making this overall? Is there a forgiveness? And we're like, Hey, everyone that is here is here and that's where I think the left and the right can't quite agree. And that's probably a barrier to things getting done is because they're like, okay, there's a lot of ramifications. We want this to be done, but we don't agree with the road to get there. And that's something, it's so interesting for me to listen to a lot of my parents and my other immigrants that I know who have gone through the process legally and illegally, they have such different opinions on what is fair, fair and what is not fair.

Sam (00:37:23):

So I was just thinking about that, what to do with people that are undocumented or illegal here. And I was just thinking about our situation and I was thinking back to that time when I was pulled aside for being on a deportation list and I had those thoughts. I was like, what would I even go back to? I don't have a home, have a job. I don't know, do you

Tayla (00:37:48):

Have a

Sam (00:37:48):

Community? I don't have a community. I'd literally get put on a plane, get sent back, and then become immediately homeless or try bunk with some distant relative or something. I would have absolutely nothing and I'd have no support system. It

Tayla (00:38:03):

Pretty much no skills to navigate that culture.

Sam (00:38:05):

Yeah, because I came here to the US when I was a young teenager. So I would imagine that that's would be the same for a lot of the undocumented or legal people is like, you actually have nothing to go back to. So my suggestion would be is that would be a starting point is that we accept the fact that they're here and they should stay here. It's about how to manage the situation with knowing that they will be here unless of course I, I'm okay with criminals if they're like right and the crime is not coming here, but rather the crime is, hey, you murdered someone, you raped someone, you are a repeat theft person or whatever. Those are the type of offenses where you said, well, I don't mind if you had nothing to go back to. You can go back to jail in wherever you came from.

Tayla (00:39:02):

Yeah. That's the difference on crimes of desperation versus crimes of bad people. I think we all kind of agree that there's no, why make room for people like that when there's plenty of those criminals already here that are from here. But yeah, it's difficult because then you have people who have gone through the legal system and paid all the money and waited the years saying, well, that's not fair. They came in this way and what, they're just forgiven and it's no big deal. I actually don't feel that way even having gone through it where I'm like, okay, that was so crappy. Why would I expect or want anyone to go through that when it was so horrible for me? But I do understand the perspective of I may as well have then just come illegally kind of.

Sam (00:39:57):

Yeah, so I mean if you look at the economics of this,

Tayla (00:40:00):

Oh yeah, I mean

Sam (00:40:01):

By the way, immigration is good for economic growth and it's one of the reasons the United States has excelled and done well for itself is because of how much immigration has happened. Again, it's about trying to encourage the right type of immigration and like Ben was saying, it needs an overhaul. It needs to be simpler, it needs to encourage the people that want to come and work and contribute. And this is part of one of the things that I feel like is important though, is assimilation. I feel like bring your culture, your values, but also try join in and assimilate into a unified culture as well, whether it's primarily or a secondary culture. I really do feel like one of the things that at least from our family's perspective and from your family's perspective, we've assimilated, we've kept our culture, we still bry eat our food, we still have a lot of those. We watch a rugby and we have all those sorts of things that are important to us and the way that we like to joke and have our family dynamics or still South African, but we have assimilated. We don't just try and push our south africanness on everyone else, but we also try and embrace a lot of the American culture.

Tayla (00:41:22):

I think where there's resistance to do that is one, if you feel like there aren't resources to help you to do that and if you're undocumented, you're afraid to reach out to any resources to learn languages, to educate yourself, to meet with your neighbors because you were just afraid all the time of someone turning you in or whatever. So I think that that's a way to help people assimilate better is to vilify <laugh> undocumented immigrants. But I do think as well, the constant aggression behind you are in America now or you're in America now. It's one of those things where with our toddler, the more you try to pull, the more she's going to resist why? Because it feels like it's not coming from her. But I think if you just guide them and just show America is awesome, so it's awesome and it kind of speaks for itself. And so I think if people can just do that better with immigrants, so people trying to learn the culture and just let the culture speak for itself rather than maybe being so aggressive that they adjust to American culture, I think it will happen a lot more naturally and a lot more like in degree wise. Yeah.

Sam (00:42:47):

So I think the phrase, it's just repeating my head right now is that the United States is the land of opportunity and I really like that. I really think that's true and to I, I'd love to be able to keep it that way where you can make of yourself whatever you want to be in the United States because of the equal access to opportunity. And if you want to go be a super hardworking, successful person, you can for the most part, for the most part, there's obviously limitations and luck and connection and generational wealth and all sorts of other things that come into play with that, but we really do have that opportunity. That's why the United States says produce so many wealthy, rich people.

Tayla (00:43:32):

So I'm going to go to this isn't a voicemail, this was a message in from a listener named Allie. She said, I feel like legal immigration is an absolute no-brainer. We want the infusions of different life experiences and cultures. We want people to access the incredible opportunities we have here, which is what you were saying that reminded me of her comment. We for sure need to fix our immigration system to make those opportunities accessible to people. But then illegal immigration is something I struggle with. I don't think the problem of criminals, immigra immigrating is as much of an issue. Rather than that there are people who are unsupported and old half members of society and are afraid to access resources for fear of deportment because they were so desperate to come here and the legal immigration system failed them. I so sympathize with those people, but I also know it can create some tough dynamics.

(00:44:22):

Societally illegal immigrants are way less likely to have medical insurance. So if they show up on emergency departments, they're paid for by the state. If they drive, they're way less likely to have auto insurance leading to major problems in the case of an accident. But then if states provide resources to illegal immigrants like medical benefits and supportive income, they may as well just be started on an expedited naturalization track. Then they could be full members of society and also contribute. So I guess it all comes to back to how screwed up the legal immigration system is.

Sam (00:44:55):

So in terms of immigration from Mexico there, it's a mess. So it's, man, I don't even know where to start and that's probably why it takes a bunch of smart people doing a bunch of smart things for a long time. But one of the problems that you have with immigration from Mexico is that there is an economy to having illegal workers in the United States as well, so Oh my word. Yeah. So there's an incentive for people to stay undocumented on both sides of the table so they

Tayla (00:45:29):

Can pay them less and they You pay, yeah, you're having to give mm-hmm the pits that you're making to taxes.

Sam (00:45:34):

Yeah, exactly. Or

Tayla (00:45:36):

Insurances.

Sam (00:45:37):

There's incentive on both sides to keep things under the table, paying cash, you know, don't have to pay because in the United States you're supposed to pay benefits to your employees. You're supposed to pay taxes on your employees, so it's more expensive to pay a legal person versus an illegal immigrant. You also end up with a working class I wouldn't say a working class of people like a blue collar, a cheap labor working class where you can have people that do the cheap labor, which is doing yard work, janitorial, janitorial work cleaning a house. Those sorts of things are all done under the table and there's incentive for it to stay under the table. So there's where things get really complicated, and I understand why there's certain states probably have stronger opinions about these things because it affects them more so than say here in Utah or on planes that fly in from Europe or from other parts of the world that bring in legal immigrants. It's the illegal immigration typically from Mexico that's creating the arguments, but I feel like it has to be overhauled regardless.

Tayla (00:46:51):

Yeah, agreed. I think it's hard because obviously for me, money being a reason for anything just feels kind of gross. I think money is a huge factor in it should be a factor in almost anything you do, but if it's the reason, then it's not a good enough reason. That's kind of my philosophy. So I understand the capitalistic or the financial ramifications on having this undocumented worker situation, and I can understand why it's the way that it is, but it isn't healthy for society in the long run. And you can see that that's why it's everyone, no one's happy with it because ultimately, and this is what Allie was saying, which I think she vocalized so eloquently, was that ultimately the barriers then between the us and them, and that just increases with the current situation as it's, so let's go to another voicemail.

Janene (00:47:57):

Another thing that I think about immigration is definitely the us the process, immigration pathway to immigration and citizenship is really, really difficult and often it's really cost a lot of money. And so again, your have and have not equal opportunity to access kind of that. So I would think, I know New Zealand, Australia, they have a lot more streamlined process for gaining permanent residents. And even access is right up front. They have a point system where you qualify to if you have certain education, you qualify so many points. If you're a certain age, you so many points. If you have family, you so many points. If you have a occupation that they actually lack in, you get Sony points. And so you actually have to get a minimum of a very high standard points. And once you're in, then that you don't have to be reassess at every step. And so it streamlines the process. They've got a very good system to gain entry in the beginning. And then once you're in, you've proven it one time. And so I think if America could streamline their immigration process you'd have a lot more people trying to do it upfront rather than going the back route.

Tayla (00:49:26):

Okay. That's where the voicemail ends.

Sam (00:49:28):

All right. So those last share are some really good points int there. If you've looked at other, I like immigration processes around the world. There are a number of good, decent logical immigration policies and processes that exist out there. And I believe we could implement some of these things. I love the point system and it's upfront and what you're getting into, and it's not a weird application process where you're just kind of in the United States, it's just we applied and you're like question mark for you. Hopefully

Tayla (00:49:59):

They, they like my application and let me in.

Sam (00:50:02):

But have, I want to put the caveats with the complexity of the United States is one, when you're talking about New Zealand and Australia is not that many immigrants in comparison for one.

Tayla (00:50:14):

And the country is smaller and more homogenous,

Sam (00:50:16):

Small and homogenous, and it's both islands. Well, one's a giant continent, but you know what I mean. It's not like there's a huge border United States borders, right? Massive. And so you have to deal with the complexity of, I feel like if Mexico didn't exist, you could put together a really simple program like New Zealand. I completely agree. But the problem is you're having so much immigration coming from the southern border that in a lot of ways is gray and unknown in terms of how many people are illegally coming across. We actually don't know the number because we don't have just ports of entry on the southern border where everyone comes through.

Tayla (00:51:02):

Yeah, I mean I think it's a good point, but I do think though, if you were to make legal immigration more achievable or more attainable, then you wouldn't really have to worry. That almost solves the problem of people having the incentive to do so in an undocumented way because being an undocumented immigrant in the US is actually a very difficult life. The paperwork and the just, it's very difficult. It's not a fun, easy time. You know what I mean? So I think if, I mean perhaps they can in New Zealand or Australia as you attain, these are ways that you can get to points and you need to get 21 points or whatever to get in. Perhaps our point system is a little more attainable that perhaps they can be a little more what's the word? A little more picky I guess, in an island country where there's less space and whatever.

(00:52:02):

I guess my point is, what I like about the point system is that if you are in a bad situation or if you're in a country and you know need to be in a better situation, you can find that in the United States, then you know exactly what you need to between now and whenever. Your goal is to be able to qualify. It's not it doesn't, not based on the lack of who looked at your application and what time you sent it in and which lawyer you had submitted. It's literally, okay, we really want to move to the states and we're at 19 points, and here's a spot in the points where I think we can get those extra two points, and this is for me to get this level of education in the next two or three years and then we can go, you know what I mean? You can actually plan around it and then go in that way. And then obviously it's a benefit to the US because you're basing those points around things that we want and need here.

Sam (00:52:59):

Yeah, I think I was just brainstorming while you were talking I could see that

Tayla (00:53:06):

In

Sam (00:53:06):

Your eyes. I glazed, glazed over a little bit. I think, again, I'm just trying to deal with the complexity of the southern border and I agree that having for a certain demographic and a certain subset of immigrants from Mexico, you would be able to encourage 'em to come here legally through a simpler that is known upfront and they have the resources to understand those things. I also think that there should be a lower level workers visa that allows Mexican citizens to come into the United States to work documented, but it comes with

Tayla (00:53:47):

It's easier to hire them, it's not as expensive.

Sam (00:53:49):

Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm thinking. So some sort of thing where it's like maybe they don't have to pay the taxes, maybe there is this different kind of visa which allows 'em to basically become documented, but they're still gaining the same benefits. Currently both parties are gained the same benefits of as

Tayla (00:54:05):

They currently

Sam (00:54:06):

Have currently have, but it comes with a whole different subset of rules. And I dunno what those rules are. I dunno, it's going to take a lot of thought. I don't even know if it's possible, but I was just thinking because the main thing the previous voicemail said, no, no, the previous, no, the message Allie. Yeah. She was saying that basically there's a mess when it comes to the undocumentation of this because people are not getting assurance, people are not getting, because

Tayla (00:54:36):

There isn't a wait

Sam (00:54:38):

And there'll probably, there's an incentive for them to not interact with the police or any sort of authority, which means that you run into all sorts of myths, hit and run issues. You run into them with crime that they're not going to report

Tayla (00:54:53):

Fingerprinting,

Sam (00:54:53):

All sorts of things. So the whole goal is that you want to just know who's here and know how to manage your population that lives here, your residents. And so I'm just trying to think, there's got to be maybe an in between kind of lower level point thing where someone comes across and

Tayla (00:55:10):

Specifically to do that kind of work that is needed. Yeah, yeah.

Sam (00:55:13):

Okay. So I'm hoping that someone in Washington or a bunch of people in Washington are thinking harder about this and maybe we need to put together a coalition of people that's signed 1 million signatures and tell 'em we need to do this.

Tayla (00:55:30):

I'm such a skeptic where I'm like, yeah, that doesn't do anything, but we all want it to. And that actually brings me to our last voicemail of the day and I'll let you listen to it first, but you can just see a pattern in pretty much what everyone has said.

Kelsey (00:55:48):

So my thoughts on immigration are that the immigration process is too hard and so rigid in America that leads to more illegal immigrants in the US because a lot of the people that want to come are over cannot afford how much it costs to immigrate. And so I think there needs to be a reform in order to make it still a good background check, but without all the money that's in included. Because you'll see more people able to come over legally and they'll be able to contribute to the society and stuff more.

Tayla (00:56:25):

So one thing about what she was saying is so much money gets put into the immigration system by the exorbitant fees and it's to mitigate some costs. But I do feel like if you are to make that more affordable, first of all, it gets rid of this elitist. We only accept you if you have such and such amount of money. That idea goes against the international Bill of human rights where people have a right to asylum and a right to opportunity. But if you were to help people legally immigrate and then have them contribute via taxes, it mitigates a lot of the costs that you would lose in the fees that you're charging people who happen to want to do it legally.

Sam (00:57:18):

I think the price tag is not to really generate income. I think it really is. Just to put a barrier there that, but I do agree that that's what I was thinking with that. The kind of,

Tayla (00:57:33):

Yeah, I don't think that'ss, right?

Sam (00:57:34):

Yeah, I was just thinking about that early idea of how to manage workers that want to come from Mexico. They're not going to pay the $1,500 for a certain type of visa when they really are just coming here to work a hard job, so they'll stay undocumented. So there, there has to be some sort of level where there is a cheaper variation of that. And for a certain type of immigrant looking for a certain type of pathway,

Tayla (00:58:06):

I just think the focus on how much money someone has is the wrong focus and the focus should be on their capability to be able to sustain themselves, if that makes sense. So someone and people's, what that looks like is so different family to family, in person to person. And so if you can figure out a system where people can demonstrate this is what our family costs to survive and this is how we can sustain ourselves,

Sam (00:58:35):

That's actually part of the process. Now I remember that when

Tayla (00:58:38):

It's a part of

Sam (00:58:38):

It, when I went through the application process, I think,

Tayla (00:58:42):

But they have told you how much you need to make though, or they don't say, oh, if your family can budget extra well, you just need to demonstrate you can only make this much

Sam (00:58:52):

No. So yeah, what I was saying was, I remember your sponsor has to have X amount of dollars in the bank. You have to show that. Yeah. And I'm trying to remember which stage that was. I think it was probably the F1 visa.

Tayla (00:59:04):

Yeah, I was going to say my student visa. We had to demonstrate that we had 10 grand in the bank, which is a ridiculous sum of just cash to have lying around. No one has that. In fact, I'm pretty sure we literally just had friends transfer money in so that we could demonstrate it, and then we sent it right back to them because it's just, I understand why the policy is there, but again, it's not only money to show that you can sustain yourself. It's an exorbitant amount of cash that almost no one has. It's not really attainable or realistic for a normal person. You're only having

Sam (00:59:40):

Certain, well, at demographic, at least at on the student level. Right. But that's why

Tayla (00:59:45):

They have that, or from African countries or

Sam (00:59:47):

Whatever. Sure. So that's why they, again, they just want to make sure you're not going to come here and just try live

Tayla (00:59:52):

On the doll. Yeah, I get that. But that's why I'm saying an adjustment from just, this is how much money I have to, Hey, this is how much I cost, and I can have that. I can sustain myself month to month that way, or at least a couple months out, something that's a little more reasonable rather than your entire college life. You can just have the cash lying around.

Sam (01:00:19):

Yeah.

Tayla (01:00:19):

So it's hard. It's complicated, and this is why everyone's like, yes, yes, we need the change, but it's not really happening because there's so many nuances to it. And everyone's so different

Sam (01:00:31):

From what I remember now too. The student visa is actually even harder to get now since, yeah.

Tayla (01:00:36):

Yeah. Yes. So to finish off, I want to ask, what did you like about your immigration experience and what would you change?

Sam (01:00:52):

I liked all the kindness that the community showed. So that to me was just a big laugh line for our family. There was just a lot of really kind, helpful people, a lot. And I don't think we would've made it without them. So for me, that was part of it to, I think it was good for our family in a lot of ways to go through something so difficult together and for our parents to sacrifice so much. It really makes you grateful. I think I changed a lot as a person because of it from who I was in South Africa to who I am today and I hope for the better. I feel like I don't take a lot for granted because of it and I hope everyone can feel that way as well, because it really makes you have empathy for people in difficult situations. And then also to be grateful for the things that you do have. So yeah, that's the biggest takeaway for me on the immigration.

Tayla (01:02:02):

Yeah, I love that. What would I change? I would just change it from it being such a fear-based, political expensive, horrifying experience to something that is procedural. It's not emotional, it's just processing and making sure that everyone that is being processed can be successful in wherever they're going and trying to do. But things that I liked about my process, probably very similar, where not only were people so kind to us when we had moved, but so many people were willing to ask us questions about our immigration experience to learn because they just as citizens here had never gone through it or even thought about being an immigrant somewhere else ever. And I just loved how willing people were to hear about our experience and be open to learning about the human side versus the numbers side.

Sam (01:03:03):

Yeah. I also think going through it, one last thing is that I definitely do not fear almost anything now. Our ability to have gone through that pack, I've been moving so many times, or changing of careers or whatever, nothing scares me anymore. I just know that you can accomplish anything. You, if you really work at it and you really just look for every opportunity and you just don't give up. You really can do way more than you think you could.

Tayla (01:03:34):

Yeah. So true. I want to print that whole paragraph onto a t-shirt.

Sam (01:03:41):

Okay. Happy Valentine's Day. Thank you for listening to

Tayla (01:03:53):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (01:03:56):

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