Babe, What Do You Know About?

Guns

January 31, 2023 Sam and Tayla Season 2 Episode 13
Babe, What Do You Know About?
Guns
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Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Sam and Tayla talk about America's gun violence epidemic. They discuss the sources of the problem and potential solutions. 

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Tayla (00:11):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:14):

Where your hosts husband and duo, Sam and

Tayla (00:17):

Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment.

Tayla (00:22):

So I was hoping that you would dress up as the princess for the birthday party. 

Sam (00:27):

I did dress up as a princess. 

Tayla (00:30):

Did you <affirmative> look like a very princessy princess If you did. 

Sam (00:33):

Wow. That's offensive.

Tayla (00:35):

So in what way did you dress up as a princess?

Sam (00:36):

I wore this beautiful t-shirt, it said "Politicat debate"

Tayla (00:42):

With two cats. That's not a princess shirt in any way. Oh,

Sam (00:45):

Okay.

Tayla (00:46):

But it was fun for a three year old birthday party. I feel like it was pretty fun.

Sam (00:50):

Yeah, I had a good time. I made like 10,000 chicken nuggets.

Tayla (00:54):

Yeah, that's what we served. We literally were like, what? There's nothing worse than going to a kid's birthday party and your kid doesn't eat what they're serving and then they're hungry and cranky. So we're like, what will all the kids eat? Dino Nugs,

Sam (01:09):

Dino Nugs.

Tayla (01:10):

It's so good. But yeah, can you believe we have a, well, we will have a three-year-old this week.

Sam (01:18):

That's crazy. Three gone by so fast.

Tayla (01:20):

It has gone by so fast. Everyone's probably sick of parents saying stuff like that, but it's truly wild. I was going to try and transition into our topic for the week, but there just isn't a clean one.

Sam (01:36):

Okay.

Tayla (01:36):

So I'm just going to do a hard left turn into guns. Okay,

Sam (01:43):

Let's do it. <laugh>. I'm ready.

Tayla (01:45):

All right. Here's my little intro. I'm going to go a little bit slower on some of these stats because I do think they're very interesting and very important. So as of January 26th in 2023, the total number of deaths due to gun violence in the US is 3044. And it's been a few days since then. So that has risen. 124 of those deaths were babies and children. 113 deaths were due to unintentional or accidental shootings less than one month into 2023. The United States has already seen at least 39 mass shootings according to data from the gun violence archive. And more than 60 people have been killed in those attacks with many more injured. As of 20 21, 40 8% of American adults see gun violence as a very big problem in the United States. And from 2019 to 2021, gun homicides increased from 14,427 to 20 1005, which is a 46% increase in just two years there, or are at least.

(02:55):

And this is wild. There are at least 393 million, 347,000 civilian owned guns in the United States, or enough for each person in the country to have a gun and still leave 67 million over. So there are 128 civilian firearms per a hundred people. Doof <laugh> another million guns. So those are just the civilian and ones. So another million guns are owned by law enforcement officials and an additional 4.5 million are owned by the military personnel. So there's just millions and millions and millions and hundreds of millions of guns in the us. So a study published in December, 2022, addition of the Journal of Pediatrics says that firearm injuries have become the leading cause of death among people below the age of 24 in the US that's above car accidents. That's above everything. So if you're 24 or younger in the US, you are most likely to die from firearm injuries.

(04:00):

So the gun homicide rate in America is 26 times that of other high income countries. And the US gun suicide rate is around 12 times more than other high income countries. Many gun rights proponents say these statistics do not indicate a causal relationship. The US accounts for just 4% of the world's population, but 35% of the global fire firearm suicides and then Americans are 25 times more likely to be killed in a gun homicide than people in other high income countries. So just compared to countries we're just not even comparable. And then last little thing is that gun gun violence is a problem in most areas of the world and has had an uptick since 2020 and the start of the Covid pandemic. So babe, what do you know about guns?

Sam (04:57):

Honestly, not a lot.

Tayla (05:01):

So this will be a super interesting episode.

Sam (05:04):

Yeah, I'm literally, while we're talking, I'm also just trying to brush up on doing the Google. My Googling.

Tayla (05:10):

So funny, sad, funny thing was two weeks ago we were just kind of planning out a few episodes and there had just been a mass shooting in California and I remember saying, oh Sam, we should record that episode this week because it's relevant. And we felt like we should do the mental health one first. But we made this horrible joke that it's okay though, there'll be another mass shooting the next week or the next week that we can still be relevant. And very unfortunately, that was just true. There's just a mass shooting last week. So just bizarre, just absolutely bizarre. What was your upbringing like in relation to guns?

Sam (06:02):

My dad didn't want guns in the house.

Tayla (06:05):

Do you know why?

Sam (06:07):

Man, I'm trying to remember the exact reason. I know one of them, he said he didn't want to own a gun. He had no problems with guns in general. He said he that, but he didn't, I think, I'm trying to remember the exact way he phrased this so I can be accurate. So yeah, I remember he would talk about how he didn't want to have the responsibility of taking someone's life in his hands because in South Africa during that time period that I can remember, the crime rate was some of the worst in the world. It's not an understatement. It really was really bad. And you know, find yourself in a lot of hairy situations. And he found himself in a number of really dangerous situations because you're a business owner and would have to pay wages, and you pay wages in cash. And so you go to the bank and you're coming to wages and you

Tayla (06:59):

Pay, you're traveling with a bunch of

Sam (07:00):

Cash. And then on multiple occasions he's had been followed and that he'd have to do some evasive driving. And you'd always talk about, if I ever have a gun, I know I'm probably going to have to use it and therefore I use it, then I'm might have to take a laugh. So he chose not to. So which is not the case for his brothers. And he grew up with guns in his house and it was fairly normal. But I mean, at the age of 13 at my high school, Panta Boys, we were shooting 22 rifles. They'd give you guns and you can go to the shooting range. And that's was like one of the PE classes was to go shoot. And if we wanted to, you could try out for the shooting like a team. The team and the it's live am ammunition and you've fire down range and

Tayla (07:57):

Wow, I didn't have that when I was going to school there. But I will say, so my dad, and it's so funny because it's not really a big part of my life or something I really noticed because he didn't ever do anything besides wear a gun. But my dad wore a gun pretty much every day. He had this brace on his ankle, so he would wear it on his ankle. I actually don't know if it was every day, but it was frequently enough that I noticed it and saw it, but it was always under his clothing and he never did anything with it. So

Sam (08:29):

Yeah, honestly it was fairly common to have my friend's parents own guns and be always wearing a gun either on your ankle or somewhere hidden for self-defense. It was

Tayla (08:41):

Really normal. Exactly. Yeah, that's why, and I remember my parents had a big safe in their closet so that they could store it safely. So I just never touched it. I don't remember ever touching it or being allowed to be around it or anything. I just don't remember it being a thing besides the fact that I just know that I saw it once or twice or knew about it. So yeah, I think my main exposure to guns as a child was just hearing about it in the news. To be honest, I didn't really have any one-on-one experiences with it besides, as you said, shooting range stuff. Not very often, but once or twice my dad would bring out a little, I don't even know enough about guns to say what it is, but it was a little very dangerous or less dangerous gun that you used for shooting very tiny bullets or bbs. I, I'm not even sure what it was, but that's my only real exposure to guns growing up. Now when I moved to the states, I feel like that changed. I almost weirdly, even though I moved to a very safe city in a very safe state, physically just guns, I just noticed a huge difference in not only how frequently they were, I saw them, but also just the culture behind it. So what are some differences that you noticed?

Sam (10:10):

Yeah. So you didn't really talk about guns South Africa, people you knew

Tayla (10:14):

They're serious. Yeah,

Sam (10:15):

So most of the generation above me went through the army. And so going through the army, it runs normal, uncomfortable around guns and they typically own guns after going through the army. So like I was saying, it's fairly normal but we didn't really talk about it guns, it was just there for protection. But then moving here, it was a massive gun culture in terms of recreationally. Recreationally, you get your hands on whatever gun you can and it would be something that you can as a older teenager go out and shooting with your friends, you know, could go out into the mountains or the deserts or, yeah. So I mean, that's pretty normal. In fact, I remember I went to scout camp and that was the first time I shot something that wasn't a rifle. I shot a big shotgun. It was pretty cool. I shot him at clay pigeons. Yeah. And I think I was 15. Yeah,

Tayla (11:20):

Yeah. I remember thinking that every time I, because I would meet people in high school that their family was very into guns recreationally. And I remember thinking guns are not for recreation, therefore killing people. <laugh> like that's what they're for. But obviously the culture is very different. It is a huge recreational thing. And I will say, I think in the right settings, I have had quite a lot of fun doing it and it can be a very cool, safe thing, but I still have this constant anxiety about being around guns. Even if I'm doing it for fun with responsible people, I'm just stressed about it

Sam (11:58):

It can be very stressful. I mean, accidents can happen and the kind of accident that happens when you're shooting guns is a very bad one. So I think it's perfectly normal to have some sort of level of anxiety around when you're shooting guns. I think that's fun.

Tayla (12:16):

And I think it's not just, obviously, again, the settings that I grew up with where a gun was involved in anything was people were getting killed. But as you said, accidents happen. And it's not just that they happen, it's that they, they're quite common and especially among children and babies in the home it's a scary thing. And so this has been something I've wondered a lot about is that gun violence, as we spoke about, the statistics are alarming, that it disproportionately affects young people, it affects teenagers, it affects children in the us. Those are the people dying from gun violence for the most part. And I feel like Americans are typically very protective over children. It's something that I've really loved about American culture is they really care about their kids but for whatever reason I haven't noticed much happening to try and protect children from guns specifically or to increase protections. So why do you think the push for legislature to protect children from guns is less than in other areas where people push to protect their kids from different kinds of educations and stuff?

Sam (13:37):

That's a really good question. I think it's just become a political talking point that for one, and then two, I think the money behind it, the lobbyist the nra, other organizations have pushed to have no gun legislation whatsoever. I do think there needs to be a nuanced approach to gun control or adding in any sort of gun controls but it really is confusing to me why it's such a topic that people that defend gun rights become very sensitive about when you bring up the topic right after a shooting, you're not allowed to, it's yeah, a holy ground that you're not even talk about because they're using things like, well, you're using this very emotional situation to make a change. And you're like, well, but this would be a good reason to make a change this after Sandy Hook.

Tayla (14:54):

Oh my gosh.

Sam (14:55):

Yeah. So I don't

Tayla (14:56):

Even thinking about that one.

Sam (14:58):

So with Sandy Hook, I think that's when a lot of people realize if this didn't create change, nothing.

Tayla (15:06):

You, for listeners who maybe are not familiar with the situation, kind of give us a rundown.

Sam (15:11):

So from what I remember, Sandy Hook a mentally ill, suicidal slash depressed teenager. Well, he's like 1920, young man was able to get access to a rifle went to an elementary school, and basically I think he killed 40 kids. Is that right?

Tayla (15:41):

People, most of, I think a couple

Sam (15:43):

We're talking kids like 8, 5, 8 and under 8, 7, 6. And now some of those people are adults and you're, so that's interesting that

Tayla (15:56):

Some of the other students that weren't killed

Sam (16:00):

And they're telling their stories and remembering that trauma and there's parts of it that you haven't heard yet and you're just, I mean, it's almost unreal that nothing happened after that. There wasn't like, oh my gosh, we have a mental health crisis in the United States coupled with access to so many guns, so therefore let's do X, Y, and Z. It was like, we're not doing anything because the left points to the rights and say, you're the problem. We're fixing it, we're doing this. And then the right points back to them said, no, you're the problem and we're not doing X, Y, and Z. It became a political thing and you're like, are we serious? We're not going to care about any of these children that were just

Tayla (16:41):

Murdered.

Sam (16:41):

Yeah, just gunned down. It was, it's pretty bizarre to me.

Tayla (16:44):

Yeah, I remember actually at the time president Obama gave a speech right after that shooting, and it's one of the few times, because he is, regardless of your political swayze, he's a gifted orator. And it's one of the few times where he was pretty emotional or he broke down crying in the middle of his speech. And I felt, it's so weird that the next day on my social media, all I'm seeing from my conservative friends were how instead of talking about what had happened to the children and what we need to do, they were talking about how Obama was putting on this emotion and faking crying about, and I was like, first of all, it's not hard to cry about that many children just being murdered. I cannot even picture sending my kid off to school, my little five, six year old to school and never seeing them again because they were terrorized and murdered at a place that should be really happy and really amazing. So I was just frustrated by that because again, it was just so political. Instead of being like, let's just talk about the reality. The reality is these children are dead and they shouldn't be dead, so what can we do about it? What should we do about it? And yeah, we couldn't even get on the same page to go from there.

Sam (18:13):

That to me is the most bizarre thing, is that there's literally no action, no action, not on mental health, not on guns, not on anything, not on rules about media sensationalism, not rules about anything. Nothing happened. And it's bizarre to me that that's where we are. We're at a standstill because of the political nature of it.

Tayla (18:39):

Well, you mentioned something about the lobbyists too, and that's been something that has been not only as I've experienced being a citizen here in the States, but also studied international politics. It's just been so interesting how much money is allowed to be involved with the legislators that create the laws. And just the amount of sway and the amount of money that can get just pumped into people that are supposed to be making moral decisions for the company is just super bizarre and shocking.

Sam (19:11):

Our political leaders are corrupt, just hands down. I mean, you hear all the stories about how they do these insider trading stock trades because they know of certain legislations that's going to happen or whatever, and you're just like, wait, they can do that. I mean, this is crazy to

Tayla (19:28):

Me. Well, that's the thing though, is yes, they're corrupt, but it's so not understandable. It's so easy for them to be corrupted in the way the system is in the first place. So this is something that George Washington himself warned against in his exit speech as he was resigning as the president of the us as he warns about money and politics and factionalism. And this is, I mean, it's actually bizarre to go and read that speech today because it's like he prophetically could see what would happen. And what has happened is just powerful men essentially, and more so now women just using the political sphere for their own ends and being able to dress it up as public servant andry, that sort of thing.

Sam (20:19):

There is a whole rabbit hole. I mean, there's a whole rabbit hole. There's a rabbit hole to go down here that I could just get really upset about. We can <laugh>, because this takes me back when I first became political, back when Citizens, citizen United, citizens United became a thing. I was, so I started getting into politics before that, and then Citizen Citizens United became a thing, and I was like, how is this becoming a thing? How is this now reality? And then the creation and invention of Super pacs and just the free flow of money into politics is just

Tayla (20:54):

Exorbitant. Yeah,

Sam (20:55):

Yeah. And I feel it has made the country significantly worse. It's made us, it's more divided, it's made everything more intense. And it also goes, I mean, everything has become about money. I guess it's, think about the 24 hour news cycle just a moment ago I mentioned about how one of the issues is that we have sensationalism of these events and the news meter just shoving this down your throats and then afterwards the entertainment world shoving this down your throats. There's always another serial killer documentary that everyone needs to now watch in Netflix, or there's like a fictionalized version of Jeffrey Daher or whatever. I'm just sick and tired of this stuff because it's the oversaturation of all this violence and all this crazy. Yeah, I mean, it's a whole rabbit hole that a

Tayla (21:46):

Whole rabbit hole,

Sam (21:46):

A whole rabbit hole that it infuriates me.

Tayla (21:50):

No, it is. And I just remember because I studied international relations in international politics, that was my degree. And just putting it against most other first world countries is just so stark where it's just things that are very normal about the political process here in the States are illegal in other countries. And I most expert, most experts agree that there isn't really any positives that bringing this amount of private money into the political sphere has brought, there really aren't any positives and certainly not any that outweigh the negatives that we're experiencing. So I guess that's to sum, to summarize your answer to why the protections for children with guns and gun violence and even gun accidents isn't happening. And sounds like your opinion is that it's because of money, because of private money and because of the, again, extreme over politicization of the us. Yeah. Is that

Sam (23:02):

Right?

Tayla (23:02):

Yeah. Is that about sum it up?

Sam (23:04):

That about sums it up.

Tayla (23:06):

Okay. So another kind of unique issue with this, well, not unique, but I would say actually, yeah, I mean it's unique in how frequent it is, is the occurrence of mass shootings in the us but not just mass shootings, but mass shootings in schools in the us. So why I bring this up is because, again, we grew up in a country that is on the top of the lists every time for murder, for crime, for violence. And we don't have mass shootings in South Africa in schools especially. People do not just go into schools and shoot a bunch of kids, even in a country where life is maybe so worthless a lot of the time. So it's just such a specific horrible phenomenon that happens in the states where children are being shot in their place of learning and education on a frequent basis. So yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Sam (24:16):

My thoughts are twofold. So I think the first is that man, I had been in the states not even one year when Columbine happened, and I was in Utah, and it's one state over from Columbine and similar kind of vibe and culture to Colorado in terms of high schools, in terms of what we saw happening in the news media, what was showing us what Columbine was like, and then my high school experience in Utah. So

Tayla (24:47):

Again, a little bit of background just on what Columbine is, for

Sam (24:50):

Those who, Columbine I believe was two young men, I think they were 16, 17, somewhere around there. Basically depressed boys that were bullied and became basically obsessed with guns and eventually decided to make a plan to kill their bullies and then as many people as they could and then off themselves. So they credit improvised explosives and then

Tayla (25:19):

It was almost like a military operation

Sam (25:22):

Carried out. Yeah, exactly. And they loaded up with a ton of guns and then they went through the school and shot up a lot of people, I don't even remember the number, but basically they went from classroom to classroom through the library, and it was a whole long ordeal. Eventually the SWAT came had them barricaded in one of the rooms, and then they killed themselves.

Tayla (25:55):

And this was one of the

Sam (25:56):

First window, this was one of the first ones to ever happen in a school, a school. And so here's my thought about that was I think, so the news also had just turned into that 24 news cycle because they realized how much money was there. And this was one of the things that was pushed on that 24 news cycle, and it became national news. I don't know if it became international news, if it made its way there to South Africa at the time. So I think what happened is that people or kids didn't realize this was an option. Like, oh, I could, I'm sad, I'm depressed, I'm angry most teenagers, and this is how I'm going to deal with my problem. I can deal with it this way. And because these guys were freaking paraded around legends, not like, Hey,

Tayla (26:56):

Everyone, infamous,

Sam (26:57):

Infamous, not like, Hey, this is good. But rather it was

Tayla (27:01):

Everyone, they were remembered. They knew their names

Sam (27:03):

And all this attention. And so I think some people started realizing that this could be an option. And with the access to guns, then they started it becoming more frequent and the news media kept the same cycle going. And now it's a frequent thing because now this is a way that you can deal with your problems. This is now an acceptable way that the society has said, yeah, this happens now, this is part of the society now and it happens and there's actually nothing that's stopping you from doing this. And so how with suicides, it's suicides don't happen in isolation. If there's a suicide in a school, typically there's going to be a spate of suicides surrounding that. That's why they immediately get counselors and other people there to try intervene because you know,

Tayla (28:02):

Can steamroll

Sam (28:03):

Can steamroll. And I believe that's what's happening in the United States with mass shootings. It, it's one of those things that you can do. So I don't think guns are necessary the problem, but the ease and access to 'em means that that is the method that is used. And because it's such an effective method

Tayla (28:23):

To kill people,

Sam (28:24):

To kill people, it's very devastating and very quick.

Tayla (28:29):

And that's always been my thought as well, is that I, not that I don't want people to be able to own guns, especially people that are so responsible with them and respect them so much, and they have it deeply ingrained. It's just part of their culture. However, I do, I just don't understand why things are so lackadaisical when it comes to being able to procure a gun. The fact that it's just in Walmart is so weird to me. Or, okay, couple years ago, I think Ella was a few months old, we decided to go on a date and we're like, so we had just had a, maybe we can talk about this in a second. We had just had this scary experience with an accidental exposure to someone else's gun, and we were just so both shaken by it that we were like, maybe we don't know anything about what we're doing, but let's go to a shooting range to just see if we can gain a healthier relationship with guns and not be like, so maybe we are just being a little bit extreme with our fear of guns and blah, blah, blah. So we go show up. I wasn't a citizen at the time you were, and it was so weird for me. We walk in, I fill out this paperwork, I think someone checked my license, but I don't think they did. I maybe just scanned it or something. No one actually looked it over. And you went up to the counter and we are both, literally, they're like, what do you want to shoot? And we are like, look at each other. Well, we don't know what we want to shoot. And they recommend this. What was the gun they recommended?

Sam (30:08):

It was an acr.

Tayla (30:09):

They recommended this huge, I don't even know anything about it. It was just freaking huge gun.

Sam (30:14):

It's basically a variation on the AR 15

Tayla (30:17):

And a couple other things and didn't show us how to use it didn't show us how to load. It didn't tell us what to do if the gun jams didn't check that we know, hey, even if you're not planning on shooting or the gun is a safety, don't point it in direction like nothing. And obviously we knew those parameters because we're stressed about gun safety. So we're like, we know you never point the gun, blah, blah, blah. You always act like the gun is loaded and ready to fire. But they don't know that we know that. And I was just shocked because we just walked, I just walked into the gun range, didn't realize I needed to put my hearing protection on. I remember thinking I got more in in-depth safety training for laser tag <laugh> than I just did walking into a gun, a range full of people with huge freaking guns that I could just kill all of them. I could have just gone and killed all the people in there. And obviously a lot of guns people when I've said that, they're like, well, that's a dumb place go because all those people will shoot you back. And I'm like, yeah, but that's the problem is what if I don't care about that <laugh>? Like, yeah, no, it was just wild.

Sam (31:30):

So I remember it's pretty much like that. I remember getting some instruction but in terms of the accuracy of, you get more instruction about when you're about to go play laser tag, I mean that, that's actually pretty accurate. But yeah, no, that was one of the interesting things is that they just kind of gave us the guns and the ammunition and then basically pointed towards, hey, just go through there and go shoot. I think they gave us a lane number and you know, go through your lane. And

Tayla (32:01):

Fortunately there was this really weird, but really nice dude next door that in the next booth that a gun jammed or something. And he helped us out because we were like, well, is it, what do we do? And he helped us out and he was really nice. So the culture among the people there was actually really cool. Sp and I actually really did enjoy it. It was scary as hell, feeling the power of the, it's scary, but it was fun. It was cool to be in that culture and people were very friendly and responsible and stuff, but I was just like, this is so easy. I could have been anyone. I just gave them a license that I don't think checked very closely. I wasn't a citizen. I could have come in from any way to do anything and just take this gun into the shooting range. It, it's just kind of freaky to me how quickly and easy you can get guns, and that's just even through legal easy means. Nevermind that black market, you have an experience where someone tried to sell you a gun or something?

Sam (33:01):

Not on black market, but just one of my neighbors was he was manufacturing the guns for the state legislator here in Utah back in 2014 or something. It was the blue one with the bhop on it, and he had some extras that he was willing to sell to his neighbors.

Tayla (33:19):

It's literally just a neighborly thing, I guess.

Sam (33:22):

But it's not black market.

Tayla (33:23):

No, but yeah, he doesn't know who you are or anything about you.

Sam (33:28):

Yeah, but I mean,

Tayla (33:30):

That is wild to me. So that's my thought is, I guess circling back is I don't have an issue with people having guns. In fact, most of the people that I know that own a gun are take it very seriously and are very responsible with it. However that is lucky because there are a lot of people that could or do have access to guns that are not that way. They're stupid. In fact, one time I went to lunch with someone that I wouldn't trust with a pepper spray, nevermind. And he was just open carrying this gun that wasn't actually, I was just like, I could just grab this gun from you. It just, it's just wild to me.

Sam (34:13):

Yeah, no, it, the whole open carry thing is kind of weird to me. But I mean, guess it's so entrenched into the United States culture that, I mean, it's not uncommon to see it. Yeah, I mean, so you, I'll go out to lunch and it's not uncommon to see or notice someone that is carrying a firearm. Obviously they're not carrying around a rifle or anything, but there's carrying a pistol or something.

Tayla (34:41):

Yeah, I mean, we saw a street karaoke and three dudes, three old dudes were just singing along with their guns. <laugh> just strapped to their hip. It was just kind of like, okay, again, I don't have a problem with it, but it is very far into me. And I'll say, I'll submit that as perhaps my bias is based on my upbringing and experience is just, this is a foreign culture and a foreign idea to me. However, I do think that most people agree that procuring a gun and then even what you do with a gun after you procure it is too lax. Yeah, not a lot, everyone would agree with me, but in South Africa, pretty much everyone uses guns, but you have to go through training and demonstrate that you know how to use the gun safely and they actually come to your home to make sure that you have a safe way to store it.

(35:34):

That is according to regulation, and that prevents these accidents from happening. And I just don't understand why that wouldn't be a thing here. I mean, literally to drive a car, you have to go through courses, you have to demonstrate proficiency, and you have to regularly demonstrate that you do still have that you have to register your car, and this car needs to be up to safety standards, all this. And that's just for a car. I feel like something similar where you're like, oh, let me demonstrate that I do know how to use this and I like it is safe and here's where I store it. And the gun itself is still safe to use. Why that wouldn't be more of a thing and why the states would not unite behind that. Because that's half the problem too is if one state imposes gun laws, they don't check you at the border between the states. And so it doesn't actually help, or you can't tell how much it would help because it's so easy to bypass that essentially.

Sam (36:30):

Yeah. So I, if you look at and the reason I was looking at my phone just there for a second was one of the things I pulled up was the murder rates, homicide rates by country, the rate per a hundred thousand population United States has around five people are murdered annually per a hundred thousand people. And it's not great, but it's also not bad. So

Tayla (36:58):

For sure there are worse countries.

Sam (37:00):

Oh yeah. In fact, I'd say the majority are, I don't know, but majority is the right word. But if you think about countries like Costa Rica, that Caman Islands you're not thinking of a murder rate higher than the United States, but it is double then that of the United States. So I know that there is a gun problem and a specific gun problem, which is accidental, accidental firearm injuries and death mass shootings and then suicide,

Tayla (37:33):

Those specific phenomenon.

Sam (37:35):

Yeah, exactly. So I mean, there's still obviously gun violence in general, the United States, but the murder rate is actually not significantly higher per gun than other countries.

Tayla (37:45):

In fact, if you go per gun, it's like a lot less because this is just millions of guns.

Sam (37:49):

So for example the United States has, I think it's four times the amount, four times the amount of guns in per capita per capone, then Finland. But the murder rate is literally on the exact same scale, so mm-hmm. Murder rate is one, but they literally have a quarter of the guns per capita as the United States. So it's actually lines up. But these specific problems with the mass shooting, the suicide and the accident, accidental deaths, I wish we would do something about it. And I just feel like we're not getting to the root cause of the problems because we're not even allowed to have a discussion about it. Sure. It's such a touchy thing that people get really defensive about on both sides.

Tayla (38:39):

A hundred percent on both sides.

Sam (38:41):

So for me, that would be the starting point is to actually be like, Hey, by the way, we can have a discussion about it and let's have a discussion about it. Yeah. Because I feel like we could come up with some good solutions. I don't personally have them off the top of my head, but how idea, but

Tayla (38:56):

You're not an expert and experts are out there.

Sam (38:58):

Yeah. I'm not an expert on this, but I would love to it to be something that we can have open discussion about in society. Politically it should be discussed. This is not holy ground that we shouldn't be allowed to have a debate over.

Tayla (39:12):

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think that's just, again, it's a symptom of just the growing extremism, just especially in rhetoric when it comes to the United States just right now in this period of time, for whatever reason, it's hard to just talk about things because so touchy and it is on both sides a hundred percent. And I try to notice when I am feeling shutting down a conversation just because I disagree with it and trying to avoid that. But it's just in the culture right now too.

Sam (39:48):

Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that in terms of, I think shouldn't happen, so if we got rid of all guns just tomorrow, Sandra Law into place, you got to turn your guns, everyone turning your guns 100%. We would dramatically reduce gun violence, gun suicides, gun accidental deaths, mass shootings. That would all dramatically decrease dramatically. But I feel like the root cause of some of these other problems wouldn't still be resolved. And also, I don't don't know what would be the unintended consequences of removing guns like that. Because one of the things that are so deeply rooted in the United States is that, hey, we have guns because fu King of England fu governments, we're not going to be ruled by our government, which is ironic because we have guns, but still we're completely dictated to it at this point. And I mean, the debate is, would our firearms even do anything against

Tayla (40:57):

The US military? Yeah.

Sam (40:59):

Nothing against a modern military. So I don't believe that that is a good solution. And I think that's, no,

Tayla (41:09):

No. Yeah.

Sam (41:10):

Yeah.

Tayla (41:11):

And so I would say also most people I think would agree that the solution isn't to have everyone just turn in all their guns

Sam (41:17):

But what I'm trying to say is walk, walking back from that mentality is at what point we then say, Hey, what are the unintended consequences of doing this gun control action that we are unaware of? Yes, we know that doing these kind of control actions will reduce this many deaths, but what else are the unintended consequences of that? And that's why I want it to be a debate and a discussion, because I think with study and with discussion and with debate, we can hopefully cross a lot of those bridges of like, Hey, oh, okay, if we go down this pathway, we know what these consequences would be. So let's maybe consider X, Y and Z instead of abc.

Tayla (41:58):

Yeah, for sure. And that's kind of why I use just the driving license example, because I think that's something my mom brings up all the time. Actually, her big thing is if you need to do it for a car, why not just, and that that's a way to maybe normalize it as part of normal life, just driving. And it is part of normal life for a lot of Americans, and it's just very basic things that would make a big difference. But at the same time, again, we are not experts. We don't know, as you said. And I think it just needs to be, the experts need to be allowed to focus on real results, and then I think people need to be committed to taking those evidence-based results and doing something with them.

Sam (42:45):

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So I've got a couple maybe your questions first, but I've got a couple ideas if you want to hear them.

Tayla (42:56):

That's actually the area I was going is just about gun control laws, your thoughts on them, the relationship with everything. So yeah, let's do it.

Sam (43:03):

Here's some ideas. And again, I'm not an expert. I'm sure that someone's got some good counterpoints to this and could be fleshed out,

Tayla (43:12):

Discussed. We can get some engagement social media too

Sam (43:15):

I'd love to hear it. But I think for me, the very first step, before we talk about guns, I'd like to talk about mental health because one of the big ones is the suicides. Suicides with, even if they don't take out someone with them, they're taking out themselves and they're easier answers to go. And we have a huge problem in the United States with it.

Tayla (43:36):

That is, I was, it's not in my statistic list, but that is the number one way that people commit suicide in the US is with guns.

Sam (43:46):

I've known a few people that have done that same it's

Tayla (43:49):

Devastating.

Sam (43:51):

So the last episode, we spoke about mental health. So I feel like one of the problems that we have in the United States is that, so even though that me, I'm middle class, we can get access to mental health, always have access to mental health, healthcare. I've been supported and surrounded by a lot of loving, kind, great people, but not everyone has that. I feel like because we are so against government programs and government spending, we don't have government programs and government spending in this direction, but I feel and this avenue, but because of how bad things are at this point, I really feel like we should be spending time and money in this direction. And a lot of the conservatives side might not like that because that means bigger government, but we need something, we have to do something about this. We need more access to good mental healthcare

Tayla (44:47):

Snaps for that

Sam (44:48):

Snaps. So that's the first one. I think we start off that direction, and I don't know exactly what the programs are and what they do or how they implement it, but that would be the very first thing. Hopefully everyone can agree on that basic idea.

Tayla (45:02):

Just putting more resources towards the mental health crisis. And there are plenty of countries to go and look at for models on positives and negatives on how you implement it. Yeah.

Sam (45:14):

I think the second thing is though, I agree with some sort of gun control laws that mimic either licenses or maybe I'm trying to remember which Scandinavian country is that they have a high gun per capita, Switzerland. It's either Finland, Iceland, or Switzerland. I was just looking at the list here earlier, but one of those three countries, basically everyone owns a gun, but the gun is safely stored and it's required to be safely stored and to have certain equipment in your house and training. I really think everyone should go through the training if they want to have a gun in your house, because I feel like then we'd be able to reduce the accidental access of children to guns because they're stupid and they're going to do really stupid things with those guns, whether they hurt themselves,

Tayla (46:06):

Even if they know how to use

Sam (46:07):

It or hurt others.

Tayla (46:10):

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with

Sam (46:16):

And then I've got a third one, by the way.

Tayla (46:17):

Yeah, I was just going to say, if you already know how to use guns, if you're really good at it, you should have no problem just demonstrating that in order to use that. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Sam (46:28):

And then the third is and this is such is going to be such a weird adjustment to our culture, but we have to, it's not ignore it, but we have to stop sensationalizing all these shootings and it has to stop being a 24 news cycle of always talking about them and always getting so entertained by it. If you listen to one of the interviews of the guy that stopped the old Asian man that was shooting up a dance hall, the questions that he was being asked were weird and bizarre, and this journalist was almost unemotionally just asking these stupid questions. And this guy's just,

Tayla (47:08):

I was trying to say, yeah,

Sam (47:10):

Yeah, he's got PTSD right now, or is drilling still running and you're asking these questions almost for entertainment pers, it was really bizarre. And I feel like there's this entertainment aspect to all of it that just has to go away. And yeah, we shouldn't know that it happened and we should be aware of what happened, and we under know these things, but it needs to stop being a whole thing it, it's saturating us. I feel that it's part of the problem.

Tayla (47:38):

I agree. It's such a fine line to walk though, because again, how do you balance? There is a way, but it is a harder line to walken between knowing the reality, understanding it, and feeling it and knowing that it's bad and we should care about it. And then as you said, sensationalizing it. And something that I do is that more, at least in my circles, more socially, people have started to try and not really even talk about the shooter or their background or their names, but they'll try and focus on the victims and make sure that you see their pictures and their names. And that's like a shift that I've really liked is because that's really what we care about is the people that were affected by what happened rather than the effector.

Sam (48:23):

Yeah, no, that's trying to do that.

Tayla (48:26):

But I would say large scale media, not necessarily. So I've seen some changes towards it, but no, it's not good enough.

Sam (48:36):

So those are the three that I'd start with. I feel like we can get to a better place just starting there.

Tayla (48:43):

Yeah, I agree. I was, one of my questions was, do you see a way for more gun control regulation in a way that placates gun advocates? So we've spoken a little bit about some things you might suggest or that you would like to see. How do you perceive advocates or gun users? I don't know what the phrase is for them, but how do you feel like they might respond to those thoughts or ideas?

Sam (49:13):

Yeah, I don't know. Not well probably. So that's why I just want to at least change the dynamic or the atmosphere of that. It's holy ground and you can't even have that debate about it. Even after those times of tragic shootings, you should be able to have a discussion about guns even after those moments. What happened to, why did this person shoot or have access to the guns? Did they get it legally, illegally? Are there certain laws that we should change so that it would prevent things like this in the future? Yes or no? And if it's no, then it's no, oh no, this person bought the gun legally at the time. He'd passed a background check. So then we start having the mental health discussion, then we start having, what are some of the things that we can do to protect schools better, et cetera. Yeah, because right now there's a lot of discussion about shooters. They find soft targets. They don't go, like you're saying, you don't hear about a lot of mass shootings at a gun range.

Tayla (50:15):

No,

Sam (50:15):

No. You hear about 'em in these soft targets. And so maybe that's another part of the discussion, but I feel like it should be a broad discussion where it's not just one aspect or angle that allowed to be spoken about.

Tayla (50:30):

Yeah. Gosh, the whole topic is just so heavy and so hard, but it's so important. It just sickens me to see unnecessary deaths and especially of children. I just, the fact that I would have to be stressed about that kind of phone call maybe one day after sending my child to school. I just don't even want to think about it. What do you do? And so just trying to make sure that no parent has to be put in that situation, especially when they're trying to send their kid to get an education and be a child like that. Especially as you say, we have to figure out a way long term to make sure this doesn't happen. And also short term, while this is a thing, how do we protect the kids?

Sam (51:18):

I have one more idea, and I'm reminded of what's the dynamic of schooling was in South Africa versus what it was here in the United States. My high school experiences, and for the most part, the culture around going to school in South Africa in high school was one of you going there for an education and you have to, you're going to go and you're going to go work at it, right? That's, here it is. This is your life. You're going to go do it. There was very little hierarchy of social dynamics and all sorts of weirdness. I mean, there was some, but very, very little. I come here to the United States and it's the freaking movie Clueless or name your high school musical, whatever. And it's like everyone's in some sort of social hierarchy, and it's a really bizarre microcosm of society in general and and I feel like that creates a lot of pressure and a lot of mental health issues for kids when they should just be focusing on, Hey, you're here to get an education and to know what math is and not what science is, and figure out accounting and history. Those were the things like I was caring about in school

Tayla (52:31):

And try get some solidarity in a couple friends,

Sam (52:34):

But yeah, it's like, oh man, what are you? You're dressed this way. You have, you're in this sort of social economic status. Yeah, you're playing for this sports team and you're on this social club, and it was so bizarre, and you drive

Tayla (52:51):

This car,

Sam (52:52):

<laugh> this car, or you live in this neighborhood and you're like, who cares? Cares if I'm dressed with long socks versus short socks? But for some reason, the high school experience of the United States has become this really intense social

Tayla (53:08):

With a byproduct of education sometimes.

Sam (53:12):

So if we could get rid of that, I think that would help tremendously with the mental illness and the mental struggles that kids are facing at school because they shouldn't be kids and they're acting like adults way before they have adult brains.

Tayla (53:28):

Yeah. I kind of spoke about my thoughts on between the two kinds of schooling that I had in our corporal punishment episode, and I remember as a kid going to school in my uniform every day and having a big, quite formal, I remember thinking, oh, I wish I could be more casual. I could wear my Cs or civilian clothes, <laugh>, that sort of thing. I remember having those thoughts and then I moved to the States and I was so excited to be like, oh my gosh, that'll be so nice because I can just wear casual. And I was so shocked. I hated it because I genuinely, so much of my emotional bandwidth was to figuring out what was it going to wear that day or the next day. I had never had to think about that before. I literally just had my uniform out that I was going to put on the next day, and I didn't have to think about not only did it fit or was it appropriate for the stuff I was going to do that day, I didn't have to worry about any of that.

(54:23):

And so I actually didn't like it. I really wanted it and I thought I would like it, but even as a child, I was like, this is adding a whole new dynamic just to my day where I'm just stressed about how I'm being perceived because of what I'm wearing. Even though no one probably cared. I thought they did, or I felt they did. They did. Or I was a bit stressed about it or noticed other people. Unfortunately, that's just the reality. I noticed what other people were wearing, and I had never had that dynamic. I went to school growing up with kids in a squatter camp and kids that lived in mansions, and you wouldn't really know unless you were friends with them because we all wore the same uniform. And just small change, that does make a big difference because it takes out this social part of just deciding how to clothe the body that's just going to house your education for the day. Yeah.

(55:19):

Small things like that will make a difference, I think. And then just how they structure. I do feel it's weird that the campuses, for the most part are pretty open, and in South Africa it's fenced off. You have to go through this specific office to sign in to even be escorted on the property. So it's a lot safer in that way, even though we weren't locked in, we didn't go through detectors or anything, but it made a difference who's on the campus for the most part, because there's a very quick way to track it. So yeah. I love that thought, actually. So I guess ultimately, what do you think it's going to take to actually see some real change in the US when it comes to reducing gun violence?

Sam (56:03):

So it's not going to take, so we're going to

Tayla (56:07):

Take shootings.

Sam (56:07):

It's not going to take shootings. That's not going to change anything. It's going to have to be money. Money money's going to have to do it. I I'm, and I'm not sure how or where that money comes from, but that will probably be the main motivator to make some sort of change. What if I'm being realistic?

Tayla (56:30):

What a depressing answer. But you're probably right.

Sam (56:35):

I would hope it would be because of an advance or be social change. Social change like, oh man, we feel very different about this now. I just don't think that will actually do it here in the United States. I think it would have to come through some sort of financial gain.

Tayla (56:50):

Yeah. All right. Experts out there. That's our very special advice to you, <laugh>. Figure out a way to make it profitable,

Sam (57:01):

Figure out a way to make it profitable and also just be open to the discussion and debate around it and be open to being wrong both sides of the discussion. And if we could land on common ground and start making those changes, maybe we'll be able to make bigger changes in general.

Tayla (57:24):

Yeah. I like that direction too, because I think you're right on the reality of the change, but I don't want it to discount social change and cultural change that we can have over our influence and over our sphere of people is being willing to have the conversations in the way that they should be had even with people who feel and think differently to you.

Sam (57:42):

Well, there could be money in education, so maybe that's the step people going. Everyone refuses to have their kids go to school and we refuse to pay our taxes towards schooling. I don't know. I don't know. There's got to be something

Tayla (57:58):

Nationwide. School strike.

Sam (58:00):

Yeah, nationwide School strike could do it because then there's a lot of money involved in that.

Tayla (58:08):

Very interesting thoughts. We'll probably ask you guys for your thoughts and ideas on reducing gun violence in the us. I'm probably the most excited for our social media engagement from maybe this week, maybe than almost any other week. So gear up and I'll make sure to save it all into highlight so you can kind of see the results of that anytime.

Sam (58:32):

Sounds good.

Tayla (58:33):

All right. Let's have dessert. How I do

Sam (58:45):

Thank you for listening to

Tayla (58:47):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (58:50):

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