Mental Health(care)

In this episode, Sam and Tayla discuss the difficulties of the mental health crisis affecting the world today. They talk about past personal struggles with mental health, advice on reaching out to struggling loved ones, why we may be struggling so much with mental welfare these days, and their ultimate advice for those struggling with limited access to professional help. 

Transcript

Tayla (00:10):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:13):

Where your hosts husband and duo, Sam and

Tayla (00:17):

Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment.

Tayla (00:22):

So tell us about the trip.

Sam (00:28):

It was amazing. It was so nice to unplug and disconnect and have some good weather and some good food. It was just amazing. I loved it. And unfortunately it feels like life always has a ying and a yang. So unfortunately, I feel like your week was worse than normal

Tayla (00:53):

I mean, it was, sorry, pretty bad actually. The night before you left for Portugal max, our little seven month old was just, he had been unwell, but his breathing started to be wheezing and it actually freaked us both out. We just couldn't tell if he was able to breathe enough or if it wasn't getting oxygen. So I literally took him to the ER at midnight, I think we got home, they diagnosed him with R S V, got home at 3:00 AM and you left for the airport at 9:00 AM and that was the rest of my week. The kids both ended up getting R S V and my nights were just, the one would wake up and then I'd finally get that one to sleep and the other one would wake up and I'd finally get that one to sleep. And fortunately I had a family around that was willing to help and a friend of mine that was willing to help. But wow, I just so exhausted and I just kept telling Sam, the only thing to do is for you to enjoy this as much as possible. There's nothing you can do over here. Please get the rest that you need to step in when you get back.

(02:16):

But truly, what was your favorite part?

Sam (02:20):

Favorite part

Tayla (02:21):

Or favorite day or favorite activity or

Sam (02:23):

Food or whatever? There was one day, so I went to Portugal and basically I rented a car and I just drove around the hall of Portugal, looked at everything there's to see, well, not everything as much as I could see about Portugal and just explore and then walked around a lot. But there was one day I didn't do that. I went to the beach where we were staying, where I was staying, and I walked four hours, one direction on the beach until I could, I was dead. And then I walked the whole

Tayla (02:55):

Way back. You have to walk back.

Sam (02:56):

Yeah. But it was great though. I was texting you the whole time and sending photos and just

Tayla (03:02):

Meditating,

Sam (03:03):

Just thinking about laugh and things and send you thoughts and it was a really good day. So I think for me, that was the best day.

Tayla (03:11):

The pictures looked stunning. Absolutely stunning. And said you went for a little swim afterwards.

Sam (03:17):

At the very end when I got back to the starting point beach and went, didn't swim for a little bit, so it was really nice. Kind of wash off that giant walk.

Tayla (03:27):

Right? Isn't that something you used to do a lot?

Sam (03:30):

Yeah. In Miami I used to love going for walks on the beach.

Tayla (03:34):

Hour long, hours long,

Sam (03:36):

Like an hour or too long, walk on the beach and just kind of, it's a great way to clear your head, think straight, rejuvenate. It's awesome.

Tayla (03:44):

Well, this wasn't the intention, but it leads kind of perfectly into the topic for the week.

Sam (03:49):

Oh, you just did a whole jed out mind trick on me. I didn't see

Tayla (03:52):

That. I didn't even, I did it on myself. Oh, I wish I could claim it, but let me do little intro to our topic this week. Sure. So few statistics, how I do. 21% of adults are experiencing a mental illness in the United States. So that's the equivalent of over 50 million Americans. 15% of adults had a substance use disorder in the past year, and 93.5% of those people did not receive treatment. So almost 94% of people with a substance use disorder were not treated, which is really concerning to me. At least the percentage of adults reporting serious thoughts of suicide is 4.8%, which is over 12 million adults. That's actually, it's a lot. And we've spoken about this in the past, it skews more towards, so men make up 75% of those contemplating suicide, but women are three to four times more likely to attempt suicide.

(04:58):

Let's see, 55% of adults with a mental illness receive no treatment, which in the US is over 28 million people and 11% of adults with a mental illness are uninsured. So in the US there are 350 individuals for every one mental health provider. So that's something we'll talk about is just the huge gap between access to care and illness. 23% of adults who report experiencing 14 or more mentally unhealthy days each month, were not able to see a doctor due to costs. So in Canada, in 2018, suicide accounted for 21% of deaths among children aged 10 to 14. So 29% among youth, aged 15 to 19, and then 24% among young adults, 20 to 24. So it's like one of the leading causes of death in 2023. The Forbes Health found some that resolutions for the year of 2023. Some were more common than others, but 45% of people were prioritizing improved mental health leading into this 2023 year.

(06:08):

And then according last kind of little stat is according to the World Health Organization, this is a little more global. Depression is one of the leading causes of disability and suicide is the fourth leading cause of death among 15 to 29 year olds. Globally, people with severe mental health conditions die prematurely as much as two decades early due to preventable physical conditions, not including suicide or attempted suicide. So they state that many mental health conditions can be effectively treated at relatively low cost. Yet the gap between people needing care and those with access to care remains substantial and effective treatment coverage remains extremely low. So for all that in mind, babe, what do you know about mental health and mental health care

Sam (06:54):

A little bit.

Tayla (06:56):

So what do you think mental health is?

Sam (06:59):

What do I think mental health is? So what is mental health

Tayla (07:03):

To me? What is mental health? Yeah.

Sam (07:05):

I mean, I feel like to me, mental health is everything. And about that, I mean, it's just literally how I don't want to use the word normal, but I can't think of a better word right now. How normal your brain is processing your environment and your internal needs, desires challenges, et cetera. And mental health can be good and it can be bad. It can be poor, it could be in good condition. So for me that that's what mental health is and kind of the things that you're, the statistics talking about. Some, sometimes it can be very bad. People have gone to the point of wanting just to end it because of how poorly they feel about life or how n or not feeling anything about life. Sometimes depression is isn't just feeling bad or negative or hating life. It can be just not feeling anything about life and it's,

Tayla (08:22):

Yeah,

Sam (08:23):

It's terrible. So that's what mental health is to me.

Tayla (08:29):

So if I could restate just simply what I got from what you said is that mental health is your ability to cope or regulate or deal with your interactions with the larger world and circumstances. And that can be a high coping skill or a low coping skill and not necessarily skill, maybe ability, just depending on some physical things versus skills. But is that accurate?

Sam (09:00):

Yeah, that's accurate. And then just later on, but also internally as well. Yes. It's not just necessarily a reaction to the world around you, but also sometimes it's just your thoughts.

Tayla (09:10):

True. Yeah, that is true. And I think probably, it's actually really interesting. It's probably indicative to most of the depression or anxiety that I have felt has been, I think pretty environmental or situational. So that's interesting that my brain was like, that's what it is. But it's true that clinically depression, anxiety can be, and other mental health illnesses can be very much internal.

Sam (09:35):

So this has been such a fascinating topic to me since I can remember since being little 10, 11, 12 little. So my mom is a counselor, so she's always been, she used to work, be a social worker, and then she's done a lot of counseling. And I always had access to her stu materials that she would study or books that she would have around for work and I'd read them. Those were some, funny enough, the only things that I'd ever read the were super fascinating to me.

Tayla (10:15):

That doesn't actually surprise me because even now you don't really read for fun. You're just reading

Sam (10:20):

Information,

Tayla (10:21):

Writing studies.

Sam (10:22):

Yeah. So I found that so fascinating about people, and I think it became even more of a passion of mine when I moved here to the US as a teenager because all of a sudden I was thrown into this whole new world now is 15, and I had no clue why all of a sudden I wasn't connecting with and having friends and being happy and nothing felt normal. So I spent so much time, I stopped and just started studying and observing people. What are they doing? Why are they making friends? Why does this person like this person? Why is this person happy? And then having friends, et cetera. So it started there as well. And then when I went to college I would take books out about interpersonal communication and all sorts of other interesting side topics to that are associated with just people dynamics. And then that continued on and I ended up marrying a I guess she was in the counseling

Tayla (11:31):

You, Jesse, to me. So I thought you were talking about me, but you were talking about your ex-wife.

Sam (11:36):

Yeah, no, I wasn't Cheersing.

Tayla (11:38):

Sorry. Yes. So you married?

Sam (11:41):

Yeah my ex-wife is ended up being a doctor in counseling psychology. So just being around the whole

Tayla (11:54):

Professional side.

Sam (11:55):

So it was super interesting to me. And then I've obviously been through counseling and therapy, I've been through couples counseling and then I just find the whole field of mental health, super, super fascinating. Why do we do things absolutely interesting to me. Anyways, the point of that whole thing was is that with thatAnd though, it's still a very sensitive and taboo topic that people don't like to talk about because you don't like to feel like in terms of, Hey, I do X, Y, and Z for my mental health. It's obviously getting a lot better than what it used to be. But not everyone likes to say, Hey, I go to my therapist and X, Y, and Z, or I'm on this medication for this X, Y, and Z mental health problems. It's obviously now become a lot more accepted and mainstream, but there's still, I'd say culturally still parts of society that basically doesn't want to talk about it and kind of ignores it.

Tayla (12:57):

Yeah, I find that. So I would say I'm from, obviously I'm a woman, so I think that does make a difference too, is that we are more willing, women are more willing to share mental health difficulties or stresses with each other generally at least. But I will say that just chatting about seeing a therapist more often or posting about it and it kind of being a little more lighthearted and lies fair is more common. But it's still difficult, I think to reach out when you're genuinely having that hard of a time. So I don't have any qualms about talking to friends about if I'm going to therapy or having a bad mental health day, past tense. But if I'm in the moment really struggling, especially with postpartum depression, anxiety that I experienced for whatever reason, it is still difficult to reach out. I think there's for some reason just some shame that comes in that, or just feelings of laziness or that you should be able, there's nothing really wrong. Why am I feeling this way? It's kind of difficult. But you kind of mentioned obviously struggling to adjust a bit when you had first moved to the states, but I wonder, would you say that you've ever experienced a mental health crisis? Personally?

Sam (14:19):

I remember at a moment when I was a teenager, it was during that period and it probably happened before I decided, Hey, I'm just going to figure this out and I'm going to figure people out. So I'm going to figure out why I feel this way and why people react, interact the way that they do was when I first moved here, I just had no friends. People teased me. It was really, really rough. And I just remember one time coming back from a church activity and I was just absolutely just done with everything. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to jump out the car. I'm done. I was with a group of friends. I was like, you know what? Everyone's just kind of a dick to me. What am I even doing? So this little 15 year old me is like, I'm just going to jump out the car. And I opened the door to the car and funny enough, my friend Jared Maxfield you, him from I think the super nice guy. Yeah, super nice guy. He grabbed me and he's like, I don't remember what he said, but it was just such a nice gesture reaction to that whole situation. And I'd say that was a big mental health crisis that I had.

Tayla (15:24):

Well, yeah, you actually acted out kind of a serious thought that you had.

Sam (15:29):

Yeah, it was a really rough time. How about you?

Tayla (15:35):

Yeah, I feel like I've had a few instances. I would say probably multiple instances where I would say I felt at least I was in crisis actually the year after the whole full year after I moved to the States as well. Very lonely, very homesick. I didn't choose, we already spoke about this. I didn't choose to come. I was pretty upset with my parents. And I just remember it for whatever reason, just having this really unhealthy preoccupation with death. And it's not that I was suicidal or wanted to die, I was just so fearful of dying as sad as I was and leaving behind my family with this memory of this horrible version of myself because I would, I'd be up into all hours of the night arguing, yelling, screaming at my parents, obviously just asking for help in a very immature way because I was a child.

(16:36):

And I would go down into my room and I would just like, I couldn't sleep. I couldn't sleep because I was just thinking, I even wrote goodbye lettuce to my phone because I was just convinced that I would die in my sleep or something. I just wouldn't wake up. And I just, that's really heavy to carry on. And I did for over a year for whatever reason. And then when I had an accident when I was 19, got hit by a car and had some pretty significant injuries from that. And so I walked around with a cane for a year and a half. And at about that year and a half point, I was just like, I am 20 years old and I was playing sports and very active before this. I'm like, is this going to be my life? Or I'm just going to hobble around an old lady for the rest of my life.

(17:25):

I felt undesirable. I felt like all these things I struggled at that time. And then, like I said, I would say maybe another one that comes to mind is right after having my first baby, especially just having pretty severe postpartum anxiety and then some residual postpartum depression that I didn't recognize until you finally <laugh> spoke to me about it, which was difficult. But those are kind of some top ones that come to mind. But yeah, I would say that I've cycled through every few years I've come across what felt like a real crisis in my mind. Sucks.

Sam (18:08):

Yeah, no, they're horrible. But I'm glad that we've got lots of material. We've got people, we've got.

Tayla (18:17):

Well, that's what I was going to say. What helped you during those times? Cause I know you also had kind of a dark period during and after your divorce that was very difficult and lonely. Yeah. So helped.

Sam (18:31):

And during that crisis, I think that's actually a really good one just going through the divorce. Cause it wasn't just so, I wouldn't say I was in crisis mode. Once the separation happened, it was more like, wow, this is just an absolute horrible moments. But it wasn't crisis to that same intensity of when I was a teenager, if that makes sense. But it was a very sad, difficult thing to go through regardless of how and why you get divorced. So what helped for me was I so I obviously don't have anything against people if they want to drink or have marijuana or whatever, but I knew going into that period I was like, I can't do anything. I can't do have any substances in my body. I need to feel the things that I'm supposed to feel so I can process them. Cause I just felt

Tayla (19:32):

Like so masking or temporary

Sam (19:34):

So I felt like if I drank any alcohol or if I had any brownies or whatever, that would just be like you said, just masking the feelings. So what I decide to do was just take time to process all my feelings. I made sure to talk to family and friends every day. During that period, I was very fortunate that I was able to take work off for a few weeks because man, I couldn't imagine just trying to,

Tayla (20:07):

This is when you were doing music, so yes. Yeah, being creative during something like that would be difficult.

Sam (20:13):

I mean, I guess you could use it in the way, but not

Tayla (20:15):

In the,

Sam (20:16):

Yeah, but the kind of music I was making was happy music. True. Generally true. So it was impossible to feel those things. So would've probably written very sad. Very

Tayla (20:25):

Sad. <laugh>

Sam (20:26):

Lonely music. All

Tayla (20:27):

Your fans are like, are you okay?

Sam (20:30):

Yeah. So I spent time doing that. And then I think one of the best things I did was I got exercise and I got out of the house, which was just going on the beach. So the walking. Yeah. And it also would involve a run or a swim on the beach as well. But I really just used that time just out with a whole lot of space and clean, clear air to think I'd listen to music, I would then process feelings. I would call people and talk things through During something like that. You get to a nice equilibrium and you feel fine, but you know, don't process that whole thing for a long time. That that's something that takes time, years to completely process. But in terms of general mental health I always try to make sure that, at least for me, that I'm honest with myself.

(21:31):

And for me that really helps. So I'm honest with my shortcomings and failures and dumb things that I do but I'm very quick to accept that I'm dumb and fail and make mistakes. I'm imperfect and that's okay as long as on the other side of this coin, which is I'm okay with accepting the things that I'm good at. I don't mind saying thank you. When someone recognizes I do something good or I do something well, and I feel good about it as, you don't have to be weirdly humble about something like apologetic. Yeah. So yeah, I'm accepting and honest about also all the good things. And then I try to use those good attributes to be like, Hey, I'm going to use that to try and be better with some of these negative attributes that I got. Man, I hate getting angry. I feel like that's one of my big negative attributes. And I feel like, man, what is wrong with me? Why do I get so mad? And so I always try to make sure why did I get mad? What can I do to not get mad in the future? What are certain things that I can do? And then just try to be, use my positive skillsets and attributes to counter those negative ones.

(22:50):

And for me it's always trying to, again, be aware of your feelings and figuring out why you do something as part of that whole honesty thing. And you know, start to realize that there's a lot of things that you either learned behavior or stuff that you comes from trauma, being a child and recognizing that you have and do these certain things. And so it's not just like you're unaware of how you behave, but rather you're working on those things and aware of those things.

Tayla (23:22):

Sounds like the first step is acceptance and <laugh> taking, taking responsibility for your situation in what you can.

Sam (23:31):

Yeah, so there was a thought I had when I was 17. I was in college and I was reading these books and talked a lot about this trauma and that trauma and this ownership, and I forgot what it was, but something either I read or clicked, I realized, hey, up until this point, there's a lot of things that have just happened to you that have been out of your control and have caused you to think and feel and act certain ways. But now that you are aware of them now on you have to take ownership of how you're behaving now and how you think now and to do things to be better at those things. I can't blame my parents or this traumatic experience that I had forever and say, I'm going to behave this way and be this type of person because of that trauma that I had as a child. And so if that's made a huge difference for me.

Tayla (24:27):

Yeah. So did you ever try or experience something during times of mental distress that were not helpful? So you kind of mentioned that you already knew or anticipated that masking the feelings with substances, whether it be drugs, alcohol, maybe in prescriptions that people do would not be good, but anything else?

Sam (24:55):

I think not giving space. So I know sometimes you just want to problem solve and resolve and fix something or get to the bottom of something, especially maybe in, and that's probably either anxiety or something else that's making you want to do that, but it's learning to fight that anxiety or to control that anxiety or to maybe be mindful and not feel like you have to escalate or resolve or solve something right there then. So taking some space is what I'm saying is there's a lot of times in my life where I haven't done that and it just makes things worse because you're just like, I can't leave this alone. My anxiety's going at it. And so you're going into something with just the wrong mental state and you just make it, blow it up and make it horrible.

Tayla (25:49):

Excuse me, my yawn young kids. Yeah, I, I have a hard time with that because I just gives me anxiety to just be like, this is how I feel and there's nothing I can do about it or nothing I'm going to do about it right now. And I'm just like, ugh, I struggle with that, that because you are always encouraging me to meditate and to take some time to be really with my thoughts and feel all the feels and I'm just like, no, no thanks.

Sam (26:16):

Good <laugh>. Just go take a bath and have some candles on it and just relax. It'll be okay.

Tayla (26:20):

Oh, I can do that, but I will just not think about things <laugh>. Sure.

Sam (26:24):

If that's what it takes,

Tayla (26:25):

But yeah. Okay. So what was your access or has your access to care and professional help been during times of mental distress?

Sam (26:36):

So man, that's such a mixed bag and still

Tayla (26:40):

Obviously, yeah, your mom and your wife, ex-wife were not, they were like professionals, but they couldn't treat

Sam (26:47):

You. No, exactly. They didn't really have access to that. No, I didn't have access to that. But I also have had my own treatment with front professionals and it's a mixed bag. I'd say half were these, from my perspective. Good. And by that I mean it didn't feel like there was an agenda. It didn't, and it felt like I was heard and that

Tayla (27:09):

The agenda was your wellbeing

Sam (27:11):

And I felt like I was heard and given the opportunity to talk and that person would listen and then speak my language that I would understand and that I felt like there was progress because of that being heard and understood what really made a big difference in terms of being able to then hear the counsel and advice and maybe like, Hey, here's some skill sets you know, should work on and here's some strategies that you should implement and here's some different ways to look at things and here's some different ways to hear things.

Tayla (27:54):

Okay. So did you always have access to those therapists though? Were there points where kind of the statistics we spoke about where you just either couldn't afford it or didn't have insurance or coverage or for whatever reason your mental health was preventing you from taking the steps to just get an appointment or find a therapist or whatever?

Sam (28:20):

No, I always felt like I had access to a therapist. Yeah.

Tayla (28:24):

Wow, that's amazing. So that was where I struggled was, so the first time I was ever exposed to the idea of speaking with a therapist or a psychologist was so I was sexually abused as a child pretty severely for many, many years. And so this came out when we had just moved here pretty much. And I was going through this huge mental crisis, and I'm sure this was a contributor, but I was sent to be evaluated by a therapist or a psychologist, I don't know exactly which. And that person met with me one time and informed my parents that I was fine and didn't need further counseling. And so that obviously looking back was not a good counselor. And I don't remember ever being asked about the incidents at all. And so that was a bad experience because that's, in my mind, mind, I was like, well, they're just going to assume that I'm fine unless I literally just sit there and I come up with everything we talk about without being prompted or guided through how to do that.

(29:31):

And so I just wasn't very open to the idea, nor could we afford it for most of my teenager life. So I didn't really go to counseling even though I probably should have. And then my only real exposure to really good care when I could afford it had coverage, et cetera, was after we had Ella and I was going through that postpartum depression anxiety, and you had encouraged me to try and get some extra help, professional help. And I got onto some antidepressants and started seeing a therapist and just doing that was so helpful. I finally was exposed to a therapist that, as you said, kind of spoke my language or made me feel both validated but also hopeful that I could do something different or that things could be different, that I could make it happen. But I'll say there's, even without the barriers of finances or coverage, there was still that barrier of I'm so a feeling overwhelmed or whatever with the rest of my life that going to look up a therapist that is covered and insured and in the area and has good reviews and there's a million names and how do you know who's a good therapist and fill out all the paperwork.

(30:49):

That I think is a barrier for a lot of people too, is it's just that mental load of just finally trying to connect with a therapist and then the chance that it might not be your person. So I think that that can be a struggle for people too. So on the flip side, have you ever been significantly worried about the mental state of a loved one? Someone that like you? Yeah. Someone else, whether it's a family member or a close friend, you've been significantly worried about their mental health. Yeah.

Sam (31:28):

Yeah.

Tayla (31:32):

I guess how did you reach out or try to reach out or what was your kind of process going through where you're like, they're really not doing well, what do you do?

Sam (31:43):

I think it's just being honest but sensitive and reached out just via phone call and just having a honest conversation. And it's more about, hey, this is what my perspective is and this is what I'm seeing. I'd love to hear how you're feeling and what you're thinking and just listening and then going from there.

Tayla (32:11):

This, I'm from the flip side of when I think when have had a loved one struggling significantly, I haven't been quite sure how to reach out. I think for people that I'm closer with, it's easier because I feel like I know how they will react and what they'll respond well to. But maybe for people that I love very much, but I'm not as close with I'm, I'm very afraid of their reaction or it not being received well. So I guess, how does a phone call that go? Maybe logistically, walk me through an example of how that conversation, how you might broach it.

Sam (32:47):

Well, I mean when we used the example of me and which when I was worried about the postpartum depression I had a lot of anxiety about how to project with you. Cause I was worried about just the reaction. It's just the what does my husband think of me? So you know, just have to be honest. And like I said, you kind of have to just go from there because I can't control how someone else responds. And fortunately the reaction was in a way that we could continue the conversation and you know, were willing enough to then take further steps to go reach out and actually talk to a therapist and be like, Hey, you tell me. Yeah. So yeah, no, it is a very difficult conversation and it was a difficult conversation but you just have to at least say the words, this is what I'm seeing.

Tayla (33:58):

That is scary. And especially when I feel like for the most part it's very doable but I feel like if there's distance, whether that's emotional or physical, when you just can't really actually look into someone's eyes and have that kind of conversation, I think that makes it difficult. But also just when someone, I've been worried about someone so much so that I've been worried about their attachment to reality and just self perception of their role and place in the world and what's going on. So I've just been like, how do you even talk to someone about that when it just seems like they're so detached from, that's how unwell they are, is that whatever narrative they're having to tell themselves is, but it's really unhealthy and not serving. It's just so hard and just, I'm still struggling with how to approach that level of,

Sam (34:58):

And crisis,

Tayla (34:58):

I guess

Sam (34:59):

I feel like sometimes there's also nothing you can do. And I say that, that sounds so horrible, but you know, still can try. But sometimes everyone, we aren't responsible for everyone else's mental health. I mean, we obviously try to do our part in terms of being a good friend, a good sibling, a good child, a good parent, but

Tayla (35:20):

At least not doing harm as well, not being a dick, as you said to people.

Sam (35:26):

Yeah. But ultimately it's still their life. It's still their choice. And you can't force things on onto people if they don't want to hear it or don't want to face reality.

Tayla (35:39):

Yeah, it's just hard. It's really hard to, because ultimately you're right, unless someone is very much in crisis where they're thinking of hurting themselves or others, you can't really make someone take the steps to improve their mental health. And so that's just hard. Okay. So your advice I guess, to people worried about a loved one's mental health is to just be honest.

Sam (36:15):

Yeah, it's going to suck. It's going to suck. But you <laugh> have to have the conversation and try to find a very kind and loving way to do it, but there's a very good chance they won't react very well to it. And you just have to be okay with that and try ride that out. Because hopefully at the end of riding that out, there is someone that will accept and listen and maybe try to take steps towards owning their mental health and making some changes.

Tayla (36:47):

Or at least this is my thought is they may not handle it very well and the time at the time, but hopefully over however much time as their mental health improves, they can look back and see it a little bit more for what it was.

Sam (37:01):

And one of the things that you have to be realistic about is sometimes our perceptions of other people are wrong and how we've read a situation is wrong. And so that's why when you go into a conversation like that is to try communicate that you understand that, hey, this is just my perspective and this is just how I'm seeing things. Because you want to give them space to say, well, this is actually my reality how things are, and I'm aware of how this could be perceived this way, but this is how I'm feeling, et cetera. So definitely be open to that.

Tayla (37:40):

Okay. So going back to something I kind of mentioned is this gap between mental illness and treatment and care professional. What do you think about that gap? And I mean, we even throwing in, I guess insurance and coverage in

Sam (37:58):

There, man. So it's expensive. I've been fortunate enough to either just to be able to afford it. And so that's been massive. I couldn't imagine feeling so stuck that things are so bad. And also, man, it's going to cost X amount of dollars each session I can't afford. I just need to go back to work and just freaking deal with it. So it breaks my heart to know that. And that's one of the things that I wish would change in the US is that we would have better access to mental health for everyone and that it's something that needs to change.

Tayla (38:41):

Yeah, I agree. Because even if someone doesn't have the finances, but they decide to still prioritize it, I just can't imagine how you could really focus on the session without that anxiety of, and just that weight of this is costing me this amount of money that I don't have throughout the whole session. How are you really supposed to be able to focus on what you need to? But I agree, mental health especially, I mean, I do think in the US mental health is on the decline for a few reasons. That's something we'll get into, but you can see that in evidence of the violence that we face in the United States, and especially gun violence which isn't to say any huge blanket statement about gun ownership or gun, but there there's a lot of mass gun violence, especially among school shootings and things like that. Not even on the same realm as any other country, just how often it happens.

(39:35):

And it has to be tied to mental illness and lack of the ability to regulate. And so agreed that money, I don't know, I feel like it's worth the societal investment to make sure that people have access to that kind of care because it's a net positive in general for everyone. You have better employees, you have better, even if you want to look at it with that capitalistic side. And my uncle is a therapist in Australia till recently, and he kind of explains how in Australia that everybody has the ability to go to a state-sponsored therapist X amount of times per year. And especially if you're a veteran or whatever, you have just access to some really good healthcare, even if you're a homeless person, you can go and get mental healthcare. And so it's something that other countries have prioritized and in his opinion, even as a therapist, it worked well and was worth the investment. Yeah,

Sam (40:35):

No, I 100% agree. I find it interesting that both political parties agree that we have a mental health crisis in our country right now, but nothing is being done about it or very little. And so for me that it just feels like man, we have such a broken system, if both parties can say that and then nothing actually happens.

Tayla (41:04):

Yeah, I agree. And I do find it interesting, I hear old people or some older people make comments about the mental weakness of our generation. I guess we didn't have these mental illnesses or mental health issues when I was growing up. And almost I think older people can sometimes think that because we're thinking about these things and talking about them and that we're almost like creating the problems. But I don't know. What do you think, obviously the statistics are on the rise and whether that's just because they're being measured now or it is increasing, what, why do you think we're dealing with such high mental illnesses? What in society do you think is contributing to that we are dealing with that perhaps has not been dealt with in the past?

Sam (41:56):

I think life has become way more intense and way more filled up with things. And I think it's taking its toll. It's also a whole lot more congested. There's claustrophobic, it's sway more people. I just think we're dealing with some of the ramifications of that. So that's one. Two, obviously I think we are getting a better understanding of things. A lot of people just dealt with their problems by drinking or beating their wives or some of these other societal issues. And I think now we're dealing with them differently. But I do think there is something to be said about hyper-focusing on your brand of mental illness and making it your identity and also using it as a crutch to not make change in your life.

Tayla (42:50):

For sure

Sam (42:50):

You see that happen. I'm not saying that that's a massive problem or it's the main problem, but it does happen. So I think it's around, there's some truth to that saying, I'm not sure exactly how to combat that, but it is something that we should recognize and not be afraid to point out and say like, Hey, I get it. You have adhd for example, but it doesn't have to define you as a person that you are going to be X, Y, and Z based on the general diag diagnosis of what ADHD means for you every day. Yeah, there's a whole lot of things that you can do to cope or utilize or mm-hmm. Deal with that. And it goes for a lot of the other mental illnesses, but mean if you have major depression, there's not a lot of good that comes from dealing with that. And so it's okay to have that as part of your identity and take drugs and when, say drugs, take prescription medication and Right.

Tayla (43:50):

Yeah.

Sam (43:51):

Balance out your, yeah. So

Tayla (43:54):

Yeah, I feel like that's an interesting thought because social media I think has been both positive and negative on mental health. It obviously makes it so that you can connect with people that you want to connect with. So for example, with motherhood and the hardships of motherhood, being able to talk to people that I maybe wouldn't hugely have spoken to about things because of conversation stars on social media or whatever has been really amazing because you get tips and solidarity and all these things. But I think it can be hard because again, you're so saturated with this is what your life should look like or, and it can be any brand of should, you can find something that is not your life that looks like it could be or should be your life. And I think that makes things really difficult. It's just the globalization of the world for unachievable standards and then obviously just constantly thinking about the people maybe even below you that are in poverty.

(44:56):

And it just so many things to juggle and balance. But I also do think, one thing I was thinking a lot about was kind of lack of quality sleep. I think we struggle with that as a generation and it's almost like a funnel. So you have some anxiety, depression, it affects your sleep, and so then you get more anxious or you have more depression, which affects your sleep and then you don't sleep then. But I do think technology and light and sedentary lifestyle, it does affect the quality of your sleep and that has to have a mental toll on you. And I think that that's affecting us a lot

Sam (45:36):

Yeah, that's kind of like what I was saying. I just feel like we're working too much that every household pretty much now is a two working parents and no one has time for anything. And we're just so inundated with life. It, it's so much more concentrated than it was fifty, a hundred fifty, two hundred years ago. We, it's just constant barrage of things that we have to do and must do whilst we're not going to be able to afford to pay the bills.

Tayla (46:09):

So that financial pressure is actually huge these days

Sam (46:12):

So I dream of being able to afford to be able to just step away from everything and live it was a hundred years ago and kind of be at a slower pace. Does it really matter that we have X, Y, and Z in our house? Or as a society we can make transactions so much quicker or whatever. I don't think so. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. No, but there's so many other things at play that are out of control. So we can't change society like that on our own. We just have to try make space.

Tayla (46:53):

And that's impossible to do ultimately, especially not without being able to boiling a kettle. At some point the air needs to be able to be relieved. And that's probably why we do spend so much time on social media or on technology because it's, I think it's just so much constant, I need to do this, I need to do this. You can't ever slow down, especially young people or people in that are studying or have young kids that we probably self-medicate with unhealthy habits, which then contribute to lack of quality sleep

Sam (47:27):

Quality

Tayla (47:28):

Sleep, which then contribute to et cetera, et cetera.

Sam (47:33):

You don't have to be productive 100% of the time. I do not think that is healthy. I think it creates a whole slew of problems.

Tayla (47:43):

But again, it's even, maybe this is just that bad socialization, but in my brain I'm like, yeah, but you shouldn't balance not being productive with productivity. In my brain I'm like, be productive with the unproductive time. But you, if that makes sense. Make sure it's not just purely lazy. But I think you're right. I think just having a quiet afternoon or whatever that kind of be, I don't even know what that would look like to be honest. And that's maybe part of the problem. And I just think we are not outside enough, and that's because again, responsibilities. But I do think a lot of us just live in areas where it's just not realistic to be outside as much as you should be. It's either too freaking cold or too freaking hot. I don't know, just a lot of things at play that I think make the world a better place in a lot of ways, but make managing mental health a lot more difficult. So I guess to wrap things up what would be your main advice to someone struggling right now with their mental health, and maybe especially to those struggling with their mental health that don't have the ability to pay for professional help or don't have coverage? What would be your main advice to them?

Sam (49:07):

So my first main advisor would be Google your feelings and Google what professionals say. Try to find some professional help online you can. But barring that, from my experience, I think the first thing that I'd say is tell yourself, convince yourself that it's okay for you to feel this way. It's okay for you to be in a mental health crisis. It's okay to not be feeling well mentally. That's the very first step. It's okay, it's normal. Many other people go through it and it's okay. And then the next thing from there though, would be to, I can feel differently in the future. I will, you know, can feel not in crisis and you can feel not in horrible mental states. And then to be open to what that process looks like. So that process could look like so many different things for so many different people. And so for me, I don't know how to advise moving forward from there, but that's why I'm talking about Google. But it's going to be okay that that's like what is my very first thing.

Tayla (50:26):

It's interesting, as you were saying that I threw myself into obviously trying just the conversations I have with our toddler on her feelings and stuff. And that's something I say to her all the time is it's okay to be sad or it's okay to be mad. I always say things like, it's okay to be sad, but it's not okay to hit. Or it's okay to be sad, but it's not okay to throw things. And I think maybe just going back to that primitive brain, the feelings are okay. And then just being honest with yourself on what is an appropriate response to those feelings and what isn't. Wait, what is and what. But yeah, I just wish we could almost mother ourselves or baby ourselves. Or maybe that's the advice is to try and have that narrative of a mother figure in your mind, someone who really loves you and is invested in you and wants the best for you.

(51:21):

Just talking yourself through, it's okay to be sad. I mean, it's not okay to be unkind to yourself or unkind to others, but it's okay to be sad or it's okay to be mad. And then something I'll always tell her too is, you're not always going to feel this way. And that's something that it doesn't make it feel better in the moment that I'm not always going to be this sad, but at the same time, it is just a truth. It's just a fact. Nothing stays the same, good or bad. So if you're really struggling, just remember it. It's not always going to feel this way, no matter, even if you do nothing, things will not always feel exactly like they do now. So just kind of wait as you say and do what you can within your realm. But yeah, just mother yourself, try to treat yourself the way that someone who really cares about you would treat yourself.

Sam (52:12):

Yeah, I feel like an analogy for that, A visual that I'm seeing is when you're feeling depressed or you're feeling anxiety or feeling in that mental health crisis and in that moment or feels like you're in this just yucky, gross, polluted river and you're just flowing along with it and you feel stuck in it, and that's all and feel, and all you can taste is those feelings. I feel like taking a moment to recognize kind of pulls you out and maybe puts, you're still in that river, that yy gross river, but now you're on a boat in that river and you're not necessarily feeling those things at the moment because you're kind of looking at it from a slightly pulled away perspective, more of a bird's eye view on your mental health situation. And then again, when you're talking about the, it's not always going to be that way. You then pull even further perspective to, and so it takes you a little bit further away from that yucky gross rover

Tayla (53:14):

"Just around the river bend." True.

Sam (53:17):

So you're not necessarily tasting that grossness or feeling that grossness or that terrible feeling. You may be observing it at that point. You're like, oh yeah, I'm observing that. That's what I'm feeling now. And so for me that really helps.

Tayla (53:31):

Yeah, I like that a lot. Now it's just for us, we just need to go somewhere and live somewhere where we can go on a four to eight hour beach walk.

Sam (53:44):

Yeah, guys, that's all you got to do is have the resources to be able to just constantly walk on the beach every day for many hours.

Tayla (53:52):

Truly. That's our hashtag goals for sure.

Sam (54:03):

Thank you for listening to

Tayla (54:05):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (54:08):

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