Feminism

In this episode, Tayla and Sam discuss what feminism means to us and whether or not labels and gender equality are important. 

Transcript

Tayla (00:10):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:13):

Where your hosts husband and wife duo, Sam

Tayla (00:16):

And Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment.

Tayla (00:22):

I last I checked, you still aren't gonna have a car for a while, <laugh>, is that accurate?

Sam (00:29):

Yeah. I found out today though that it has been officially ordered and it's in the system and it just has to show up. So average time though, I've been told it's like two to three months.

Tayla (00:42):

How long has it been that you've been without a car so

Sam (00:45):

Far? So it was four months before October <laugh>. So I don't know. Probably

Tayla (00:54):

Meaning when did you sell your old car and then

Sam (00:58):

The loaders was sometime in the summer? Yeah, so it's been almost six months. Five seriously. Five months. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. I had a, so I've waited six months for the Jeep so far.

Tayla (01:09):

Yeah, that's what I

Sam (01:10):

Was, yeah. But I think I sold the loaders like it's

Tayla (01:14):

Been two months or three months that you haven't had a car to use

Sam (01:17):

<laugh>. No, I've just been getting a ride. It's great.

Tayla (01:21):

It's great. But you can't actually help me with anything <laugh>. So it hasn't been that great for me.

Sam (01:26):

It's been great.

Tayla (01:27):

I'm sure it has been

Sam (01:28):

<laugh>. No, it actually has been awful.

Tayla (01:30):

It's been

Sam (01:30):

The worst. I do not recommend it if you have places to be and have, don't have a car.

Tayla (01:35):

So for context, Sam, lease a car, signed a lease on a car. That should have been here two months ago probably. Yeah. That is not really inside. Still to come.

Sam (01:48):

It's coming and it's gonna be amazing.

Tayla (01:51):

It is gonna be amazing. But we accidentally, because we thought the car was coming. Yeah, we sold his other car. Yeah, preemptively.

Sam (02:01):

But I will post a picture of it once I get it though. Next year. The coming new car. Yeah. 2023

Tayla (02:07):

<laugh>. Sam's birth announcement for, its gone. <laugh>

Sam (02:11):

March. I don't know, maybe if I use,

Tayla (02:14):

Excuse me, as I take my drink. Yeah,

Sam (02:16):

Sorry. A cough. All right. So today's the big one. The big

Tayla (02:20):

A big one. But yes

Sam (02:22):

The

Tayla (02:24):

Big one for us. So this is a topic that I think will maybe differ on a little more than usual, but let me do my little introduction. Yeah. Yes.

Sam (02:37):

Okay. Wanna hear it?

Tayla (02:38):

All right. So according to a robust study in 2022, so very recent, the global gender gap has been closed by 68%. So a hundred percent would be, there is no gender gap. So 68% has been global. Yeah, global. Cool. So 68% has closed. So that means there's still 32% of a gap globally at the current rate of progress. It will take 132 years to reach full parody. And I will actually say it was less in 2019 but gender parity took a step back with a pandemic, interestingly. Anyway, this represents, it's so this year's improvement is better than 2021. But like I said, 20, 21, 22 were worse than 2019. Another study from this year across 30 countries found that only two in 10 adults deny the existence of gender inequality in general. But views are split on the benefits of feminism. So on average, globally, one third of men agree that feminism does more harm than good. So a third of men believe that feminism does more harm than good. And

Sam (03:54):

That's a global study.

Tayla (03:57):

It is global, it's not completely, it's a study across 30 countries,

Sam (04:02):

30 countries. The men of 30 countries

Tayla (04:05):

One third of them think that feminism does more harm than good. And this,

Sam (04:11):

I want you to send me a list of those countries. I'm curious for off the

Tayla (04:14):

Show. And 33% of those men believe that traditional masculinity is under threat.

Sam (04:22):

What? The same percentage? Pretty

Tayla (04:23):

Much. So 32% was the feminism one and 33. So pretty much the same. Same group, yeah. <affirmative>. So around 2.4 billion women of working age are not afforded equal economic opportunities. And 178 countries maintain legal barriers that prevent their full economic participation. According to the world Bank's, women, business and the law 2022 report. So in 86 countries, women face some form of job restriction. And 95 countries do not guarantee equal pay for equal work. Globally, women still have only three quarters of the legal rights afforded to men. About six in 10 US women today say that the word feminist describes them very well or somewhat well. So 60% essentially. But the degree to which women consider themselves feminist differs substantially and very clearly by age, education, and political party according to the survey. So four and 10 men in the United States say that the term feminism describes them at least somewhat Well. So 40% of men again, US based, and women men with a bachelor's degree or higher, are more likely than those with less education. To say that the term describes them at least somewhat well. So that the, it's very clear that the higher the education, the more likely you are to claim that term. Women are more likely than men to associate feminism with positive attributes like empowering and inclusive, while men are more likely than women to see feminism as polarizing and outdated. With all this background, babe, what do you know about feminism? A

Sam (06:05):

Little bit.

Tayla (06:08):

So let's just lay this out a little bit. I would consider myself a feminist. And you would not consider yourself a feminist?

Sam (06:18):

No. If I would have to pick a label, I would say e egalitarian,

Tayla (06:24):

Which is a feminist.

Sam (06:25):

No. So

Tayla (06:26):

That's the same thing.

Sam (06:27):

They're not exactly the same thing. There's some slight differences, but it, they're essentially the same thing. Both are fighting for equality. Ones a general equality, not gender specific. And feminism focuses on women's focused gender equality issues

Tayla (06:46):

Because that's where the inequality is. So that's focusing on egalitarianism. So this is good. This is gonna be one of those episodes where samini probably just disagree on the nuances, but it'll be fun. Be probably one of those arguments where everyone's like, you guys are saying the same thing. <laugh> <laugh>. Yeah. But yeah, no, that's what I think. That's my biggest complaint about you. I understand you maybe not identifying with the term but that's what feminism is, is egalitarianism and it is focused on women because that's where the egalitarianism is not

Sam (07:33):

Happening. So I just wanna try to restate what you're saying. So you're saying that there is no difference between egalitarianism and feminism because the inequality is only found in women and not men?

Tayla (07:52):

No. Okay. So I'm definitely not saying that there is no difference between egalitarianism and feminism. There is, but feminism is egalitarianism. Yeah. Egalitarianism isn't always feminism, but feminism is egalitarianism.

Sam (08:05):

Yeah. I 100% agree

Tayla (08:08):

And no, there's definitely,

Sam (08:11):

So at least I said the idea, the ideal of feminism in theory. Yeah, obviously. But yeah, there you,

Tayla (08:18):

Well, not obviously, but we'll get into that <laugh> and then no, it's not that men don't have inequalities, but certainly the inequality skew drastically towards women.

Sam (08:33):

So yeah, that's why I wanted to restate what you had to say because when I said I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarianism of however you wanna say it, you said, well that is feminism because that's where the inequality lies. And I just wanted to make sure that we drilled down into that because even though there is inequality in the gender and it, it's many women issues, there are men issues. And that's why I wouldn't consider myself a feminist because I'd rather have or label myself with a broader term, which includes both sexes.

Tayla (09:10):

Okay,

Sam (09:12):

Then let me back up while you think about that. So just so that people can understand and you can understand again cuz we've spoken about this before, exactly where I stand with this. So I wrote it down so I wouldn't forget. So

Tayla (09:26):

Are you prepared?

Sam (09:27):

I finally prepared. So number one, I support to you in calling yourself a feminist. 100%. I support women thinking of and championing women's rights laws and negative social dynamics. Completely support that. Why? Because who would understand those issues better than a woman? I don't understand those things as much as you do. So I think it's completely fair for me to say 100% you be a feminist, you champion those causes. I will listen, I'll try understand, and then I'll try support where I can and I'll try to understand where I can. I think about it, who better would to understand the challenges of being a South African immigrant? Obviously we all come with our unique challenges, but I really understand those challenges. So if I were to try and make social change or laws around that issue, I would be the first person to raise my hand and say, Hey, so these are the challenges that I'm facing right now. I really could use some understanding and some change in the laws. And also maybe I could also use some change in how we treat each treats South African immigrants for example. Obviously that's just a dumb example. No, but it's to try and help you understand why I support you and other groups doing that for their groups. What I feel like isn't happening right now is the ability for other groups to still feel like, yeah, we still have our problems and is it okay if we also still talk about our problems?

Tayla (11:02):

So going to your example of, okay, yeah, say who better to understand racial issues racism against black people than a black person. But this is where I have a hard time. Cuz you're like saying, yeah, I mean a black person should maybe lead the charge against these inequalities that black people are facing and I will support you in that. Yeah. When actually what is needed is, yeah, sure. Maybe you should lead the charge and we will also participate and claim participation in active participation in anti-racist efforts. Yeah. I'm not just gonna support you in trying to prevent this inequality in racism. I'm also going to lead the charge with you and follow you. Very. So that's where it's frustrating to have you be like, yeah, I support women in dealing with their inequalities.

Sam (11:59):

Not just, but no, but support doesn't just mean you give space for you to do it. Support also means actively doing it since ever I can remember. I don't agree, agree with or support gender roles. I mean I've try to think about watching my parents, I think about the relationships I've had. I knowingly got into a relationship with a liberal <laugh>.

Tayla (12:28):

Is that me? That's

Sam (12:29):

You, yeah.

Tayla (12:30):

You've been in many relationships.

Sam (12:31):

Yeah, <laugh>. But yeah, no, I have not only do I support it by saying like, Hey you be a feminist, you go for it. I support you. It's also, yeah, I believe in equality for everyone and I'm gonna take action based on it,

Tayla (12:52):

Which is why I'm like, so you are a feminist. I guess that's in my mind, this is like, okay, say you're telling me I really like queen music. I wouldn't consider myself a queen fan, but I really like queen music. And I'd be like, okay, just cuz you're not calling yourself a queen fan doesn't mean you're actually not a queen fan. You are a queen fan.

Sam (13:12):

Yeah. So no, I can see that. But there's the other side to that coin, which is also how about this? Would you call yourself and claim the label Republican?

Tayla (13:24):

No,

Sam (13:25):

Absolutely not. However, being Republican stands for freedom and democracy. So if you support freedom and democracy, why would you not take on that label of being a Republican?

Tayla (13:38):

Because I don't view it to support freedom and democracy.

Sam (13:42):

Exactly. So there's parts of feminism that I don't agree with. I feel like there's parts of feminism, especially the modern day fourth way feminism that focuses on internationalism and focuses strongly on social change. And there's a strong sentiment of an us versus them on social media that I cannot support and get behind and take on that label. Just like I will not take on the label as Democrats, conservative Republican or liberal or progressive. All those things come with a whole lot of other baggage that I don't associate myself with and I will not take on that label. Same thing with feminist. So when I was listening to that survey that you're talking about and when the question was cleverly worded, would this read that question again? It's like would the description of you being called the feminist be accurate or I want to hear it exactly. Again,

Tayla (14:39):

Six and 10 women say feminist describes them very or somewhat. Well

Sam (14:43):

What about the men? One, I want to hear that one.

Tayla (14:46):

Four and 10 men say this term describes them at least somewhat. Well I

Sam (14:51):

Would agree with that. I would say that in the survey I would've marked that off and say, yeah, that would describe me because

Tayla (14:55):

Yeah, so even less would say the same as women.

Sam (14:59):

But what I'm trying to say is though that label would Yeah, sure. At least somewhat well, somewhat well because somewhat of how I feel like, yeah, of course I want gender equality. Of course. I think that there should be an equality of opportunity in our country and in the world. I completely agree with that. However, I just feel like along with many of the other labels out there, I'm not comfortable taking on that label because of the negative things that come with it.

Tayla (15:26):

So you're not, you're not against the idea of being a feminist or against the idea of being anything really label wise?

Sam (15:34):

Well I came up, I was able to find a label that would be accurate. I would also call myself a moderate and I would take on the label of that egalitarianism or egalitarian. Yeah, I would take, it doesn't roll off the tongue really

Tayla (15:52):

Well. I would take both of those labels too.

Sam (15:53):

Yeah. I just wished it rolled off the tongue really well.

Tayla (15:56):

Especially Europe.

Sam (15:58):

Do need water. Got apple juice from Ella's,

Tayla (16:00):

Where is it's? Right. Drink it

Sam (16:02):

<laugh>. But yeah, so that's what I mean by I will not call myself a feminist. I will not take on that label. It's not that I don't support, it's not that I don't agree with so many of the gender equality actions that we try to take. I just feel like there's so much that the dirty baggage that comes with it, I don't want to take that on. I don't need to take that on. Why do I need to take that on if I believe in equality for everyone?

Tayla (16:25):

Okay, so let's kind of take a step back and you mentioned the phrase fourth way feminism and I want to go through what the waves of feminism are for you that people who don't know. Yeah. Awesome.

(16:39):

And just so that we're on the same page when we're using these terms, and then you spoke about issues with feminism that let's get into, so first way wave feminism, and I'm just gonna go through each of the waves very briefly on what was their main focus and their main way of doing it. So first wave feminism was suffragettes. They were focused on voting rights, university attendance, the ability to work outside the home and divorce rights. This is kind of the OG feminists obviously first wave, second wave feminism. This is I would say where a lot of the memes about feminism and radical feminism kind of really came out, which was a focus on the patriarchy and achieving women's liberation. But they did also focus on some important things like violence against women and rape within families. And second wave feminism did lead to really important international documents like the universal Declaration of Human Rights that champion women's rights, third wave feminism which I would say still to me represents feminism today.

(17:53):

Even though there is a fourth wave after third wave feminism is more focused on egalitarianism. And that's why it's so similar to me. And think characteristics of third wave feminism can be are, sorry increased awareness of overlapping categories like race, class, gender, or sexual orientation. So feminists in this wave of feminism champion egalitarianism for all. So any marginalized place like a feminist should be supporting as well because of that focus. So the main issues third wave feminists are concerned about include sexual harassment, domestic violence, pay gap between men and women, eating disorders and body image, sexual and reproductive rights, honor crimes and female genital mutilation. And those are all things that are really, really important to me.

(18:46):

I think for third wave feminism is also focused on what I call a little bit more on what I personally call third world women's issues as opposed to first world women's issues. First world women's issues, pay gaps and stuff are really important still. But I think the fact that we have third world women's issues like violence and rape and these issues, they happen in first all countries too, but it's just in the laws and they're just no protections for women globally is something that I really focus on. And then fourth way feminism's also known as cyber feminism. And that's used to describe the work of feminists interested in theorizing, critiquing, and making use of the internet cyberspace and new media technologies. And that's kind of what you were talking about is how did you put it? You said fourth wave feminism and you kind of said a phrase to do with it that I thought

Sam (19:41):

Was it's also intersect

Tayla (19:42):

And Yeah, part of fourth wave feminism. Yeah. Yeah. So for example, the me Too movement is kind of associated with cyber feminism or fourth wave feminism. I don't have a huge issue with that movement or anything particular, but I don't identify as much with fourth wave feminism as I do with third wave feminism. And I would say that that's most people that are not kind of into the radical extreme. So when we use those phrases now we're on the same page. Any thoughts on any of that?

Sam (20:13):

No, but it's good that you're able to identify and state that you feel more closely connected with the third wave feminism versus the fourth wave feminism. Very much so. I think it's also it's very interesting too because, so the fourth wave heaven isn't small. I know you connect with and say that the majority of people on third wave heaven, but it isn't a small group that pushes and belongs to that group. They're pretty vocal and they're pretty loud.

Tayla (20:48):

Being vocal and loud is not necessarily the same as being the majority.

Sam (20:53):

So do you disagree then with them?

Tayla (20:57):

Why don't you kind of pull that down and be more specific? What specifically?

Sam (21:03):

So do you agree that all men are the problem

Tayla (21:13):

That's such So the simple answer is no, but I do think there's, that's such a vague question that has so many layers and it's actually so complicated when it comes down to it. Men have controlled society and the government and the way things are run and families are run since the beginning of time. So in a way, the marginalization of women and the gaps between the genders is due to men being the ones in charge. But do I think men in general are to blame for all women's problems? No, in fact I, I'm pretty aware of women standing in our own way. So complicated. So yeah, she's just pulling a face at me.

Sam (22:06):

No, I'm not putting, this is a straight phase.

Tayla (22:08):

This no face. No it's not

Sam (22:10):

<laugh>. So

Tayla (22:15):

What do you disagree with?

Sam (22:17):

I don't disagree with anything. I'm just trying to understand how you feel about it. It was not as clear to me as I thought it'd be. So you don't agree with it you don't agree with the statements?

Tayla (22:28):

I don't agree cuz that statement is, I would say very, how would I put it? That statement's very loaded. Men are to blame for all of women's problems. So the loaded side of that where I'm like, no, am I gonna blame everything in my life and the struggles that I'm facing just like on men? No, it's not that simple. However, there is undeniable evidence that men decided the way society is and the way women and men are socialized and resulted in the gaps that we have today.

Sam (23:05):

So do you support then the dialogues, podcasts, the memes the TikTok and Instagram reels that push that narrative that all men are the problem?

Tayla (23:23):

No, and that's the other thing. I think I missed that on the second time you said it. That all men are the problem. No, I do not agree with that at all.

Sam (23:31):

Yeah. So again, so that's the part of feminism that I feel like creates a big rift between,

Tayla (23:36):

No, a hundred

Sam (23:37):

Percent between one men and woman, but two also that gets in the way of progress. And that's why, again, I struggle to take on that label because I see so much of that toxic behavior that I can't agree with, that I rather take on a label that is more accurate to what really represents me as a person. Cuz that type of feminism does not even close.

Tayla (23:58):

I would say that type of feminism is probably similar to radical right wing right now where it's like, it's not like they aren't there. It's not like it's a tiny group, but it's not as big as it's, it's loud and extreme and noticeable. But it's not representative, I would say of most feminists to be honest. To have that view that all men are the problem.

Sam (24:22):

The quiet minority feminists

Tayla (24:23):

Is what you're Yeah, I would say not. Yeah, I just think maybe, and we spoke about this a little bit, I can't remember if it was two episodes ago where we just algorithms and what is just trends Is that extreme stuff? Yeah. Is that what I think is representative of No, and that's funny cuz I actually, I'm not, maybe you're way more exposed to that stuff than I am because I like don't you were saying all the memes and the podcasts, I'm like, I don't have any, I'm not seeing all the stuff that I'm focused on. The people I'm following are very moderate in that. I think the important thing in any label, and this is probably why I moderate appeals to you, is self-awareness and an attachment to reality and space for nuance, right? Yeah.

Sam (25:19):

Space for nuance, very

Tayla (25:20):

Important. That's why third wave feminism, I identify more with it because it has kind of those three elements. It has a self-awareness of like, okay, here, here's the mountain of things that kind of led to where we are that was not in our control. And here are some things that are in our control. And that's why when I was in leadership positions in my organization, I would actively train women to know how to ask for raises, how to be active about it. Because some of the pay gap is obviously men in charge in a lot of most businesses and organizations are male run and that has something to do with it. But a lot of it is cuz women are not socialized, they're not asking for pay raises. So I am trying to be aware of that and be like, okay, so as a woman you're contributing to this gap by not learning this skill or not using this skill. So let me help teach you that skill. Yeah, no, that's really good. So that self awareness

Sam (26:14):

Is there. It's really good to take that ownership

Tayla (26:16):

Space for nuance. Cuz like I said, that just labeling and blaming and stuff, it's just not really attached to reality. And then that same thing attach and attachment to reality. And the reality is that it's important for egalitarianism, it's important for everyone to be doing well. Not just women, not just men, not just white women, et cetera, et cetera.

Sam (26:36):

Yeah. So then can you see why then I take the stance of one being very supportive to living my life, like you said in that service, someone said, Hey, does this somewhat describe you? I'm guess, sure, why not? But at the same time, I'd rather take, if I have to take on a label and take on a group, I won't take on that label in that group.

Tayla (26:59):

Yeah. Again, it's not like I can't understand it, it's that I'm also like, can you understand why I would want you to, I don't know. You know what I

Sam (27:09):

Mean? It's like why would you need me to if I was an egalitarianist?

Tayla (27:16):

I don't need you to. But I do think that it's almost like a too conservative of a, it's not as, it doesn't acknowledge as much to me it's not an open acknowledgement that here are the mountains of things that women have to overcome that men do not have to overcome. No, I'm just a general egalitarian instead of being like, yeah, I acknowledge that here are the people that,

Sam (27:41):

But that's what again, outturn does, they acknowledge that inequality.

Tayla (27:46):

But unless we're talking about feminism, that hasn't actually happened between you and I even, what

Sam (27:52):

Do

Tayla (27:53):

You mean when we're just having a general conversation egalitarianism, it's not focused on that. Whereas when we speak about feminism it is.

Sam (28:01):

Sure. Well no, so actually I dunno what you're talking about to be honest. So whenever we've talked about these sorts of issues, I really feel like I've been very supportive and understanding of feminist issues. Yeah. On feminist issues. In fact, one of the things that I've tried to point out that one of the biggest things in that the challenges that you face as a feminist is living in a conservative environment like Utah, where, I mean you belong to a patriarchal religion, that that's probably gonna be one of the biggest, most focal points of your feminism. It would be within that organization. That's gotta be very hard to deal with. And I've very tried to be very supportive with that.

Tayla (28:48):

Very, yeah, no, definitely. It's a good question and I don't need you to take on that. And that's not why I insisted. No, you have to call yourself a feminist. I understand why you might not connect with that term, but that's kind of back to my queen example, it doesn't change that in my view. That's what you are.

Sam (29:10):

Yeah. So if you say, that's what I was saying, that survey was great. It was like, does it somewhat, I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? But I will not go up to someone and be like, I'm a feminist and it just seems weird to me. I'd go up to someone and be like, hi, I'm a liberal.

Tayla (29:24):

But you would say you would go up to someone and say, I support women's

Sam (29:28):

Rights, I support women's rights, but I also support men's rights. So that's one of the difference is between humanitarianism and feminism is that feminism doesn't focus on men's rights. And

Tayla (29:37):

I think because men don't really have rights, they don't have

Sam (29:41):

Well no, but they are though. And that's one of the issues that feminism has is that, and why I think egalitarian needs to exist is that there are so many men's rights issues that get completely ignored or laughed at or marked because they're not women's issues. But they still need attention, they still need champion, they still need discussion and they still need to have some sort of either social change or legal change or at least discussion. But it feels like if you even try bring up a men's rights issue, it just immediately, I mean you, you've just dismissed it. So I I've got a list.

Tayla (30:17):

No, so before you go through that list, this is something that I will say is that I think the difference that what I have seen is that men's issues that people bring up are typically people issues. They're issues that men are facing and other people are facing.

Sam (30:33):

So these are specific men's issues that I've got a list of and I think

Tayla (30:36):

That women do not face

Sam (30:37):

Yes. That this is a specific men's side of the issue. So if it's, lemme just just quickly run through the list and we don't have to get deep into them, but I just wanted you to know that these are issues that men's rights activists or men's rights movements try advocate for. So there's adoption issues, there's child custody issues, there's circumcision issues, there's divorce issues, there's domestic violence issues, there's educational issues there's health issues homelessness, incarceration, military conscription, there's paternity fraud, there's rape, there's a number of these subsections against it, which is false accusations against men, sexual violence against men and there's reproductive rights issues social security and insurance and suicide. So those are the topics that the men's organizations focus on and those are things that I would hope that, again, everything's gonna be nuanced. You're talking about there's nuance with the pay gap, but it still warrants a discussion and investigation to see where we can either change laws or social interaction with each other or social understanding so that we can be equal. So that isn't an issue. So there are these same issues on the men's side that get no focus on from feminism and that's completely fine.

Tayla (32:16):

No, and I would say that that's not really accurate either. And I would say back to what I was saying earlier is the only two things on that list that are men only that people don't just face were the paternity fraud issues, which aren't not really possible for women and conscription.

Sam (32:36):

But again, so on those other issues, there's a woman's side to it, which gets time, typical, which gets time and attention and discussion. But the men's side of it has been mostly ignored.

Tayla (32:52):

I would say that straight white men in that way are more ignored. And that I wouldn't agree with. I think that is wrong. I will say that women are very good actually at focusing on men's issues when it comes to like LGBTQ men or black men or whatever. And again, that's not really right either, but I think it's just that clinging to other marginalized,

Sam (33:21):

Yeah, that's the intersection <affirmative>. So my point is that even though these issues as a whole collective, the inequality in that group up issues is minor in comparison to the inequalities, especially on a global scale <affirmative> that women face <affirmative>. But that doesn't end to say that these things don't exist and they don't deserve a group championing them or for them to be heard or understood. No,

Tayla (33:47):

I

Sam (33:47):

Agree with that. So that's again why I say I'd rather take to take maybe a more global perspective for me equality than to say I'm in this camp and I'm not thinking about these because who better to understand these issues that are maybe more manner than me a male that has to face these things at some point, hopefully not incarceration and rape, but as a man that these issues need some sort of year to hear and to understand if, how much attention do we need to change the laws about this and are there things that we can do to make things more equal? But at the same time, there's also so much time and attention that we can give on the other side to feminism and the issues of the gender inequalities, especially on a global scale. I mean you think about all the things, that's where I focus and especially on the things with thinking what's going on in Iran right now. That's a massive, huge great thing that's that people are trying to do there. What can we do to support that to me is a worthwhile endeavor. So do you know what's happening in Iran?

Tayla (34:54):

I do. Yeah, I do. But I guess that's such a general statement. What is a worthwhile endeavor about Iran

Sam (35:01):

To help support whether there are groups out there that need support, whether it's getting people together in terms of the US to try for social change in Iran. Can we put on political pressure from our side to our representative to put pressure on their side? Are there things that we can do to help Iran have more better laws for women?

Tayla (35:21):

Okay, so women's rights in Iran is a worthwhile endeavor is what you were saying?

Sam (35:26):

Well yeah, I mean not just the only endeavor though. I was

Tayla (35:29):

Just No, I just didn't know what you were referring specifically. I was like what's a worthwhile endeavor? Cuz it was just confusing. Okay. No, I agree. It's actually crazy. I think I would say I've seen a lot more, and maybe this is the other thing is it's so easier, it's much easier for feminists to cling onto other marginalized groups because other marginalized groups very quickly clinging onto to women's issues as well. So the people I have seen posting about what's going on in Iran and trying to get awareness out have been typically gay men or other women or maybe transgender people. I haven't seen that many straight men being, this is such a huge issue. And again, it's not to say that they're not doing it, but perhaps that's why there's that affinity between those marginalized groups because it's so easy for women to be like, Hey, these gay rights need to be a thing.

(36:30):

This is part of our job as feminists to also support these rights is because gay gay riots activists will do the same for women very quickly and very easily and without much, but not this but not that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Without what, what's reservation I guess. Whereas I don't see as much of that from just regular straight white men. Yeah. Don't clinging to women's issues very quickly and easily. So maybe it's more difficult for women to then be like, yeah, just like you clinging our issues will cling to yours. Perhaps that's almost just a reciprocated nerd experience between the

Sam (37:13):

Two. Yeah.

Tayla (37:15):

So yeah, just nodding

Sam (37:22):

Yes, I'm in agreeance with that. I think that's an interesting point and I think I agree with it. It makes a lot of sense.

Tayla (37:29):

Yeah, no, I mean it's good for me to take a step back and look at what you're saying. I'm feeling like some resistance to it and I think that's just, again, it's the defense and support of when it comes to the scales of inequality where the scales are heavier. But if I do take a real step back and be okay as a feminist, I do care about those issues for men and should care about those issues for men and should care about those things improving. And I do, I mean I have a son, I have a husband, I have brothers. I very much care about their wellbeing, especially when it comes to a lot of those things.

Sam (38:11):

So for me, I realize we all are limited people with limited time, limited ability to have attention. So it's very hard to split your focus. It's very hard to be able to give the right things, the right attention. So again, that's why I started off trying to start off with one, I support you being a feminist, calling yourself a feminist. I support women being feminists, calling yourself feminist, championing women's rights because who better to understand those issues than women in those groups. And then I understand that that's where the majority of their focus is going to be. And then what my role is what I feel is to hear and understand to live my life in a certain way and then to support in ways that need to be support. Whether it's through voting, whether it's through discussion, whether it's just through trying to change people's opinions within my small little circle. Those are the type of things I can change when as I understand that group's challenges better.

Tayla (39:13):

Yeah, I and I, I like that. I just don't love the phrase to just support in because it does feel like a very much a sidekick on okay, you know, as the woman tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it. As opposed to championing and pulling together on, hey yeah, this is a socialized thing that we're facing in our marriage or in my dynamics with people at work or women at work and I am taking the initiative to recognize that and make a change as opposed to waiting for women who are experiencing it to point that out. And that was among the other statistics is women are way more likely to notice those things. But I think the biggest change will come from men noticing and actively taking the initiative to make those changes as opposed to just performing a supportive role.

Sam (40:05):

No. So when it does exist in my personal life, 100% it's addressed. The problem is when things that's are exist outside of my scope, like you said, the algorithms, am I getting all the right sort of information so that I can challenge it online and will make a difference? No. But yeah, when it's got to do with my personal areas 100% I not just support but act as someone that believes in equality for both genders.

Tayla (40:41):

I think when it comes down to it, it's just between my son and my daughter who is the most likely to be limited and marginalized because of their sex. It's my daughter a hundred percent and for sure. And who is more likely to be abused or assaulted or harassed? It's my daughter. A hundred percent. Does that mean my son couldn't face that or wouldn't face it or won't face it? No, but the statistics show that she's the one that not only is more likely to be mistreated because she's a woman, but also that her messaging and the things that she's gonna take into her psychology and her socialization is she is the one that's gonna have to deconstruct more of that than my son will about her capability and her role in the world. And so that's I think why I'm focusing so much more on it again, does it mean that I shouldn't focus on what my son might face? No, I don't think that's true because a hundred percent he will face very unique difficult things as well. But I think that's just where it comes from is the likelihood is just so skewed towards the messaging that she's gonna get, that she does get just from living in the world as it is today.

(42:06):

Is my son one day gonna get unsolicited sexual messages over Instagram? But yeah, maybe he will my daughter a hundred percent she will. I would say that kind of thing. It bothers me and that's why I just wanna focus on just even that recognization, sorry, recognition as a man to be like, oh let me not just wait for women to be like, hey don't comment on a woman's appearance in an unsolicited way. Just like don't say anything. You know what I mean? As opposed to just being like, let me think about why do I feel the need to comment on a woman's anything physical.

Sam (42:50):

Again, I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding. I'm not sitting around waiting for you to tell me what to do and how to support women's rights. I, I've come to our relationship immediately feeling like men and women are equal, the foundation, the foundation that men and women are equal. That they should have the same opportunities, men and women. I understand that there are unique differences in terms of the challenges women face and the challenges that men face. When I see poor behavior in my immediate family and friends towards women or man, it gets addressed. You seem to have a problem with that. And once you address it, well

Tayla (43:43):

Addressed in what way?

Sam (43:45):

So if there, you're

Tayla (43:46):

Saying if you experience or witness or see issues like that, you address them in what way?

Sam (43:52):

Yeah. So for example there's been some discussions that you've had with your dad that we can't go into on this podcast. No, but I was there to defend you. I was there to stand up for you. I was there to make sure that you were heard. And I felt like it was a very gendered dynamic and that's why I was there to defend it because I felt like the same time and attention wasn't given to you and that you deserved. So there's, there's many examples like that. Whenever I see it I go for it. So it's not like I'm sitting here waiting for you to tell me how to so support for gender equality, but again, there's going to be issues that you are going to see and understand better than me that I support you in. You know, saying I'm a feminist. I, I'm going to see and view the world through that feminist lens and these are the issues that are important to me. And so then I will hear you and understand you and be like, that makes a lot of sense. I haven't even thought of that because it's not even within my scope of you. I'm too busy living my man life and seeing my man issues to understand that.

Tayla (45:05):

Yeah, I think, I don't know, and this is probably where just in general these conversations can, this one isn't frustrating me, but these conversations can be frustrating because even when someone says, yeah, I see and I understand and support, there's just something about the female experience that you just can't, okay, I'm so grateful that you're here and you're seeing you're willing but you just will never really understand what it's like to live in a country that has never had a woman leader, a female president, literally since the beginning of time. Men has led governments so few even now, even in 2022 BC that's just the last 2000 years. It's in the point something percent. Just how would that change your worldview? How would that change just mean policies, decisions? It changes everything. Just representation or being at the table. And I think that's the frustrating thing is it's just such a fight to get to the table and then you're

(46:42):

Scrutinized for how you're fighting to get to that table and how you're processing the feelings about having to fight to get to that table. And whether you're being graceful or feminine or kind enough or nuance enough or you're too angry or you're too this or that. It's just the whole thing is just really heavy and frustrating because it's just like you just don't, and you can't ever understand what it's like to just have that much human history lead to the way things are and then to just be clawing and fighting for things that seem stupid. Oh you don't need a woman president just because it's a woman. I think that's just where I'm at. Why I'm frustrated, why I get frustrated, why it's difficult for me to be, and I would say you are not a passive feminist. That's not the impression I was trying to give, but why any kind of indication of passivity is just frustrating and not enough for me.

(47:42):

Why I want people to be and men to be more active in feminism or at least supporting women through the thousands of years of human history that have led to the inequality that so is so obvious and prevalent right now. And so I guess that's just me explaining where I'm coming from and if you're feeling frustration, it's not really at you or really at anyone in general. Just the situation itself sucks. What? It just sucks that because I was born as a female and you were born as a male, our experience is just so vastly different when really it shouldn't be, we're human beings and that's where it comes, that's where my feminism comes from is our experience should not be that different just because we were born this

Sam (48:29):

Way. Yeah. There's nothing I can do to change human history. I know <laugh>, but what? That's frustrating. So there's nothing I can do. I was born into this world just as new as you in terms of the scale, everything. We just barely showed up and it's been on its way for the whole time. The thing that I do know is that how we get to a better place is through the quality of opportunity. And if we continue on that pathway where everyone has the best chance of, I guess I was gonna say this phrase again, equal opportunity, then we get to that place where there will be representation and it would be based on skills and performances and all the right things. I think where I think with is the scary part is when you try to create, instead of equality of opportunity, you try to create equality of outcome. You start to dip your toes into communism and all sorts of other things that we know just don't work. So as long as we keep focusing on equality of opportunity and we keep trying, and that's not just in legal terms but in terms of social dynamics as well, I think we get there,

Tayla (49:54):

But it's the same question as a country comes out of segregation or a woman come into, it's that same question of okay, sure you can give equality of opportunity but at some point the gap has to be made up a little bit somehow. And that means that men need to create more space for women and women need to take more space.

Sam (50:15):

And I think that's why there has been those things like a affirmative action and that's what, and other programs

Tayla (50:22):

Temporary. Temporary legs up.

Sam (50:24):

Yeah, I And that's the literal highlight of the phrase, which is temporary. Cuz if it stays for too long, you end up with a pendulum swing and then you end up with bigger and bigger divisions.

Tayla (50:35):

Agreed. Agreed. But yeah, I just think, and maybe this is something I can speak to because you can even have technically the equality of opportunity, but it's giving, allowing both of us the opportunity to run in a race. But I'm gonna wear weights and you're not. So yeah, we both have the opportunity to be in the race, but it's so much more difficult for me to still run the race.

Sam (51:06):

Yeah. Well and

Tayla (51:07):

That's where I have, have you ever had anyone mention or talk to you about your family or your planning or your children and how it's gonna affect your career ever when it comes to an interview situation?

Sam (51:20):

Not in an interview, not in, well cuz I've

Tayla (51:22):

Getting a job or a promotion.

Sam (51:25):

The last time I got a job in promotion was more

Tayla (51:29):

Than you're an entrepreneur and you're, you own your own businesses and stuff. So that, that might be why you haven't. But the point is, I have been pregnant in an interview and knowing that that will affect the outcome, it will.

Sam (51:43):

So here's the funny thing again, if I wish we could spend more time in a different state and that isn't been

Tayla (51:53):

Other places in other states,

Sam (51:56):

But you haven't lived a life where Utah lived a life in another state for a long period of time as a married woman that was raising kids.

Tayla (52:08):

Maybe not,

Sam (52:08):

But so Utah,

Tayla (52:09):

It's not unique to Utah

Sam (52:11):

That

Tayla (52:12):

It's not just cuz I live in Utah that I'm experiencing these things.

Sam (52:15):

It's not because you're just in Utah, but Utah is particularly conservative and family orientated. So you are very much getting a very extreme version of what exists out there in the United States. There are a lot more moderate states and experiences. There's a lot more liberal states and experiences where that has doesn't exist at all.

Tayla (52:41):

Okay. Yeah,

Sam (52:47):

I mean your experiences have being move then we're just gonna move. Your experiences have been working for the church that that's a very conservative, patriarchal organization.

Tayla (53:00):

I mean I've worked for a liberal woman and still had <laugh> these difficulties. <laugh>

(53:12):

A whole other thing. But no, I mean I think I am, I'm frustrated that, and it is, I mean sure the demographic and environment that we live in, which makes no sense to me that we would be in a family oriented area and somehow that equates to let's make these decisions for women. Cuz that's what families do. I guess it's just weird. Yeah, but how many stories do I have? How, I mean, I came home <affirmative> one day after work and I just had this story where I was just, I was pregnant with my first child and I'd had a couple months before I'd had a disagreement with another supervisor at my organization about something that he had done wrong administratively he had done something wrong. And every time he tried to wiggle out of responsibility for what he had done wrong. And I was like, no, this should have happened.

(54:07):

It didn't happen and this is what needs to happen to make sure it doesn't happen again. And then when I addressed that conversation with him and since the incident and that conversation I had announced that I was pregnant and I addressed that situation again and was like, yeah, I hope we're on good terms. I know that was kind of an intense conversation. What he said to me was, oh yeah, it's no big deal. I remember thinking that day that you were either on your period or pregnant and laughed and I just kind of laughed too. Ha cuz I was pregnant. But in my brain I'm like, but you were also just drunk. How was that appropriate? It's not appropriate. Can you imagine if I had said to any a man, oh yeah, that's okay. I remember thinking you were probably sexually frustrated that day. It's just so inappropriate. Even if hormones and things could maybe contribute to someone's like situation. I don't know. I have so many stories like that. So many stories like that, and especially when it comes to working moms, even if they have the equality of opportunity that the childcare burden, it's a childcare crisis is just ridiculous. Astronomical. That's why the pandemic set us back so much. And I think that's hard. It's hard to be like, yeah, here are all the millions of others.

Sam (55:23):

I agree and they're wrong And they're terrible and made me mad and made, I asked, is there anything I can go do about it? Do do I need to go talk to him? But again, I'm always very happy to give you space because you are a big, strong, independent woman that, and I'm not saying that just facetiously, you are very independent and very strong and very vocal <affirmative>,

Tayla (55:44):

But you can handle this. I still couldn't even say anything, right? Because what am I gonna do? The only thing I'm gonna do is then marginalize myself further. People are just gonna be like, well, let's not include her in any conversations off the books or at the table that contribute to a leadership dynamic. And our relationships that get people promotions is because we're afraid that she's gonna cause waves and make things out of nothing. That's, women face that all the time where it's just like, well I guess I'll just eat that cuz the only thing I can do to stand up for myself is going to actually back have backlash on me. It's just frustrating.

Sam (56:18):

Yep. No, I agree. Your experience here, Utah is one that has not been very good in terms of your experience with conservative I guess philosophy. Yeah,

Tayla (56:36):

Well, but that's the other thing is having lived in Europe, obviously work wise, career wise, things are so much better in Europe. But then I faced a lot of way more sexual harassment and just uncomfortable advances from men in Europe than I did here. So it just kind of, well pick your poison. Just frustrating. Yeah. Again, this isn't to say that you as a man, you don't face these things. And I would say, yeah, mental health crises and lack of social community support for men going through difficult emotional things, those are huge. And I appreciate the community of, that's one thing that women have is a community in each other. For the most part that isn't necessarily true

Sam (57:21):

For me. So for example men, there is a mental health crisis for men there. Obviously suicide is ridiculously high. And one of the issues is that we don't have the opportunity to talk about our issues is that when we do try to talk about it, our issues, we get shut down and be like, that's not, that's womens have it way worse. Women have it way worse. Look at these problems that women have. So when men do try to speak up about their issues, they get shut down. So that's why, again, I just think it is, it's valuable to try be open to the fact that they men do have issues and to try and give it space in discussion. And also not just in discussion personal level, but on a broader national level. There's space for both in my opinion.

Tayla (58:10):

Yeah, there is space for both, but you have to be so diligent about making sure that's the

Sam (58:16):

Case. Yeah, exactly.

Tayla (58:18):

On both sides. So to conclude, essentially Sam doesn't wanna say he's a Queen fan, but he is a Queen fan and Tayla says she's a Queen fan.

Sam (58:33):

Thank you for listening to

Tayla (58:35):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (58:38):

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