Babe, What Do You Know About?

Abortion

October 18, 2022 Sam and Tayla Season 1 Episode 4
Babe, What Do You Know About?
Abortion
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Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Sam and Tayla attempt to tackle the mammoth and complicated topic of abortion. 
Disclaimer: This is a sensitive topic and it does involve rants

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Tayla (00:11):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:14):

Where your hosts husband and duo, Sam and

Tayla (00:17):

Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air their grievances publicly for your entertainment

Tayla (00:24):

Well, we've actually aired our podcast, well one of our episodes at the time of this recording so people have actually heard at least a little bit of what we've done.

Sam (00:35):

Yeah, no it was good. I, funny story. For some reason when we first started recording in my head, this was never gonna air. I don't know why and serious,

Tayla (00:49):

Well,

Sam (00:50):

<laugh>, hear me out. Okay. So I never followed through the steps of what there would be like. Cause I've seen you do a lot of different podcasts and stuff and it's never affected my life in any sort of way whatsoever then. But I'm not sorry to see our friends and family are gonna be listening to this. And then I was like, Oh, they're gonna be listening to this and

Tayla (01:11):

So they're gonna bring it up. Have people brought it up to you at

Sam (01:16):

All? Yes. Yeah, no, and all good stuff. So it's all been really good and really positive and it's been nice. I, I've just forgot that that's part of the process.

Tayla (01:24):

Right. No, it's actually been one of my favorite thing, that thing. Wow. One of my favorite things that has happened since the podcast is the Wow. Hopefully my speaking improves throughout this episode, but

Sam (01:39):

I think you're just nervous because of the

Tayla (01:42):

Topic. Yeah,

Sam (01:42):

Yeah. I'm taking deep

Tayla (01:44):

Breath, I'm taking a deep breaths. But one of my favorite things that has happened since our first episode, Ed, is the unexpected friends and family that have reached out not only to be encouraging but also to give genuine feedback. Things that,

Sam (02:03):

Yeah, good discussion. Right.

Tayla (02:04):

Yeah, it's been awesome. And in fact, even tonight we had a discussion with your parents on corporal punishment that I don't know that we would've ever had besides that. It was really interesting to,

Sam (02:17):

And my day, my dad gave us a little bit more color into it and it was just really good. And my mom had some good comments and so it was nice.

Tayla (02:24):

So for me it's been encouraging that we should keep going and having the conversations. And also I've enjoyed it and enjoyed learning other people's opinions about what we're talking about too, just the topics that we're addressing. It's a conversation opener with people that maybe I wouldn't have talked to it about it

Sam (02:44):

<affirmative> with. Yes, yes, yes indeed.

Tayla (02:48):

So on that note, let's just get to it because this is a big topic but we both felt like, let's just do it. So babe, what do you know about abortion?

Sam (02:59):

Absolutely nothing. Your turn.

Tayla (03:02):

<laugh>.

Sam (03:04):

Oh

Tayla (03:04):

God. <laugh>.

Sam (03:05):

Okay. Let me first put a caveat at the very beginning of this, these are at least from speaking from my perspective, opinions and the, it's evolving and I really hope not to offend anyone. So always open to listen and discuss when someone else has strong feelings about this. But just before warn that I don't know where this lands with you as a listener, but I just hope that always willing to listen and understand other people's opinions on it.

Tayla (03:37):

Yeah, that's probably a great disclaimer to put in cuz it is super sensitive topic because it affects so many people and whatever side you come at it with your opinions on it, it's hugely born from really caring about the topic from whatever way you land. People really care about babies and children and women and so I think I'll preface this as well with regardless of whether my opinion matches yours on things I can respect other perspectives even if they, it's not where I land and assume the same that their opinion is coming from also a really good place. So yeah, <laugh>, I don't want this to come across as bigoted or angry or anything cuz it really isn't.

Sam (04:31):

With that being said though,

Tayla (04:33):

Yeah,

Sam (04:40):

With that being said I would love to hear your perspective on how would you frame the abortion debate.

Tayla (04:52):

Yeah, I actually was thinking a lot about this today on, there's so many ways that we could come at this topic that I was trying to think, okay, what do I actually want to talk about? What is actually important to me and go from there. So I'll just put this out there now, is that I would consider myself anti-abortion and pro choice, which is hugely, people view that as the opposite. But what I mean by that is, yeah,

Sam (05:25):

Clar clarify

Tayla (05:26):

That. Yeah. What I mean by that is that obviously me as a person, I would hope that no one would get an abortion, that no one would take that option. But I am pro-choice because I very strongly believe that the only person with the right to make the decision cuz someone at some point there's the ability to have an abortion that is a medical ability that we have. So therefore the decision on whether to have it or not needs to be made at some point by someone. And my belief is that the only person with the right to make that decision is the woman whose body it involves and whose baby it

Sam (06:08):

Is. And they can make that choice all the way up. Is it parameters around that as a society that you view that should be had or is

Tayla (06:15):

It, So

Sam (06:15):

Again, just the whole way through up until childbirth?

Tayla (06:18):

Yeah. So again that gets back to my anti-abortion thing on, no, again, my opinion and my hope is that no one would ever do it at any point and especially not late term abortions. But the only person really with that to make that decision is the woman. And I have that opinion even into late term abortion because from my experience and also from the statistics that I've looked up is women who carry a baby through to a third trimester, to a late term abortion, fully intended to have that baby. Because all the parts that you typically want to avoid, a lot of women want to avoid by having an abortion, which is people knowing body changes. When you have a late term abortion, you are still giving birth a lot. That's not a factor. So if a woman has a late term abortion, the statistics are astronomically high that it is a medical necessity or for the child because they either have a very life threatening disease or their only existence will be in pain that

Sam (07:27):

Sort of thing. Do you think that, so I mean we could just stop this episode right there cause I agree with 90 something percent of exactly what you're saying, <affirmative>, however, maybe you could just clarify a little bit more for me. Sure. How would you feel about the smaller percentage of women that make it too late term that do it outta convenience? Do they have the right to do it out of convenience?

Tayla (07:55):

So that's a good question. And again my answer is yes. That is only her, right? Is it right? Like morally? No, absolutely not. I really don't agree with a decision like that. But just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean that it is now someone else's right to make a decision. So

Sam (08:16):

You feel that the fetus in a late term abortion does not have a right to life? Am

Tayla (08:30):

I saying it right? No, no. Yeah, that's a good question. And I would say no, I don't think that the fetus does not have a right to life, but the fetus doesn't have the ability to choose. So someone has to

Sam (08:45):

Choose the silence is me processing

Tayla (08:46):

By the way. Yes,

Sam (08:47):

Of course. And judging

Tayla (08:48):

Judge away <laugh>. But again, the point is not is that someone has to make the choice and if it's not the woman, cuz again the baby cannot, if it's not the woman who else gets to and why would they have the right to, So when I think about people in Congress, why should they have more right than me to make that decision? Or even police officers or parents or, it's not that the woman is, how do I explain this? It's not that women are so great or I don't know how to explain that. It's not that I can't think of anyone else better to make the decision.

Sam (09:38):

Sure. So think and you're not even getting pushback from me, but I think we're, cuz maybe I'm arguing or presenting the argument for the other side of this debate,

Tayla (09:55):

Which I think is important.

Sam (09:56):

Yeah. And I do that to myself all the time, just that I try to understand other people's perspectives because maybe there's something I'm missing for

Tayla (10:04):

Sure.

Sam (10:05):

But I was just trying to brush up on the debate right before this. I was just on Wikipedia if you want to can go on to look up the abortion debates on Wikipedias. It's actually very interesting. It's an interesting read. They go over a number of the objections and they are generally pretty philosophical. So not even political yet. It's not even legality, it's just really philosophical. And

Tayla (10:33):

I will say the political legality debate is not really one I super want to get into mostly because it doesn't matter as much as, again the philosophical side I think because I think those things follow those things follow the philosophical side. So

Sam (10:56):

There, there's an argument to be had that the pushback I guess is that there are arguments for the side of that the fetus is a person and has personhood and therefore has rights. And so those rights are then put in direct conflict with the mother. And that's why it ends up that it's a debate in the first place is that if does not that person that could survive outside of the womb not have a right to have that option. So that's why it gets tricky for me because I think for me it's a lot easier to say before the fetus is viable to feel a little bit more confident saying, yeah, makes a lot of sense. The fetus is not viable, the mother

Tayla (11:47):

Is,

Sam (11:48):

What's

Tayla (11:49):

That? The mother is viable <laugh>, the

Sam (11:51):

Mother is viable. And there could be medical reasons, it could be mental reasons, it could be family reasons, it could be cultural, there could be a million good reasons to say I cannot bring a child into this world. They could be I'm not saying they're all good, but before it's viable it's a lot easier to have the argument saying, well what this person or potential person, that's the debate potential person versus the person <affirmative>. Yeah. So after it's viable, it's becomes a lot more complicated. Agreed. So for me, that's why I start to actually having that discussion after it's viable. I almost feel like it's hard for me to accept that that fetus does not have at least the right to a discussion and feedback from society whether or not it has rights. Cause I think that's collectively where we are deciding the rights is as a society we're saying where the cutoff is, where this fetus is now a person or that was it the igo to, am I saying even

Tayla (12:59):

No, that's not <laugh>

Sam (13:02):

Saying this right.

Tayla (13:03):

Biology

Sam (13:04):

Lesson. Yeah, exactly.

Tayla (13:06):

No, actually as you're speaking I feel my mind changing a little bit. Shockingly. Yeah. <laugh>. No, I do think so my point is again, not that it's not a commentary on whether it's morally right or wrong, it's that who has the right to make the decision. Sure. And that's why I'm again, but anti-abortion because I really would hope that no one would take that option, especially for reasons of convenience. However I think you may be right that at a certain point there should be with an age of viability, which is pretty, it's pretty safe with medical advances. It's a pretty clear cutoff on when if a baby were to be born, it would be viable <affirmative> that perhaps, I guess the reasons behind the choice should be limited to things like medical reasons,

Sam (14:18):

Medical, what about rape or teen pregnancy?

Tayla (14:24):

Yeah. And again, the statistics are very clear that teen pregnancies and rapes, if those women are to have abortions, it's typically very early. So it's very rare that, again, I think it, I'm trying to remember the exact st statistic, I should look it up, but it's in the high nineties that late term abortions are medical for medical reasons

Sam (14:48):

Really? So it's for late term abortions are 90 plus percent for

Tayla (14:54):

High nineties, high nineties medical for medical. And I think that's maybe partially because again, as someone who has had babies and been pregnant, if you get to that point in a pregnancy, if you're willing to let yourself get to that point, you are intending to at least give birth to that

Sam (15:09):

Child. So the woman makes the, You're saying the women should still be able to make the final decision, but who gives that? There's a lot of responsibility on the doctor to actually give appropriate feedback to the mother about the medical nature of the pregnancy. Cuz what if we define hey, it was abortion for medical reasons when it's like, hey, this kid has down syndrome or this kid has this abnormality. It's not necessarily life threatening, but it is that part of that statistic do you know

Tayla (15:47):

Is not, So this is for, the example of this would be that the baby will not live once it is born or will not even make it to birth or something that I've read a lot about that is something called brittle bone syndrome. Have you heard of that? <affirmative>, I think I've even spoken to you about it. Where a child's bones cannot, the birth will purely be excruciating and will be an excruciating death. Things like that, that that's typically what is meant. And I was gonna say part of the reason for that high 90 statistic is again, partially I think just the moral emotional side that women typically will not have an abortion that late. But also partially because of the legalities around it. It's typically not legal to have late term abortions except for medical reasons, <affirmative>. So I think that is preventing, and I don't know that that's even wrong actually. Maybe I think at that point when a baby is viable, I do think that I maybe medically based policies could be put into place to limit that decision at that point. <affirmative>? Yeah, I think I would maybe even agree with that. Okay. Because of that personhood that you were speaking about.

Sam (17:06):

So from our perspective, we're talking about at least for, and I'll just say from my perspective, personhood happens via at the point of viability, but there are people that have the opinion that personhood happens at conception. How do you manage that? Cuz that feels like another can of worms. Yeah. What are your thoughts on how to, a lot of people have a belief that life begins then, whether it's spiritual or just philosophical, morally

Tayla (17:39):

Or even biological, if it's

Sam (17:41):

Biologically,

Tayla (17:42):

If cells are regener. Yeah. Yeah,

Sam (17:44):

Sure. So how do you manage that? How do you Marley say Yeah, it's still the mother's choice and that person that's personal, potential person has no rights.

Tayla (17:57):

And the way that I would handle that is that is not an answerable question. It we cannot for sure a hundred percent agree and know when does a person become a person. It's not possible, I don't think to have a clear answer on that. It's gonna be based on you feel like, I feel like you wanna say something. No, I'm listening. Okay. Yeah,

Sam (18:21):

I'm leaning forward

Tayla (18:22):

Though. Yeah. Okay.

Sam (18:23):

For the listeners at home, I'm leaning two feet forward right now. Yes.

Tayla (18:28):

<laugh> right at the mic. So to answer your question, how to handle that, I don't think there is a good way to handle this is when someone becomes a person and therefore is allowed to have rights. And so again, I fall back to what is an answerable question is out of all the people that could make this decision, who should be trusted or who has the most right to it? And that's why I fall back on a woman's choice

Sam (18:59):

For me mean there's not disrespectfully. I don't like using the word trusted to make the choice because I feel like typically when someone is, and this might just be a horrible opinion typically when here go a woman has an abortion because they've made a mistake, I don't that it gets unintentional pregnancy. Typically

Tayla (19:25):

They and someone else made a mistake. Sure, yeah,

Sam (19:27):

Correct. But I would focus more on the word, the right to

Tayla (19:34):

Yes. Yeah. Versus that was trust. I think you're right. I think that was probably not the best phrasing, but yeah. So that's how I answer that is, okay, we have this whole philosophical debate on when does the person become a person. You can't answer it, I don't think. And so then I go back to, okay, then what can I ask that maybe can have a clearer answer? Which is okay, out of all the people with the right to make the decision, who actually has that? Right? And I firmly believe it is the woman. Now a lot of women believe that and a lot of women. But as someone who has been pregnant twice how dare you, <laugh>, you have not been pregnant, you don't know. But seriously, it is shocking how much a pregnancy affects you, your be before the baby is even born. How much a pregnancy affects your life.

(20:32):

And that's like a, that can even be in the best circumstances. Or someone like me, I throw up every single day of the whole nine months of my pregnancies. It's a big deal. And I think I had this kind of realization right before we had our first child. It was a couple nights before and we were just talking about having the baby and you said something, I'm so excited to become a parent. And my brain had this kind of click on, oh my gosh, he has not become apparent yet. But this baby has already affected every single day of my life since I became pregnant. What I eat, what decisions I make, what I'm allowed to do and not allowed to do what I'm capable of doing and not capable of doing. So in my mind, I am already a parent.

Sam (21:22):

Just think of all the sushi you had to watch

Tayla (21:25):

You, I had to watch you eat.

Sam (21:27):

It was so

Tayla (21:28):

Good. And again, I threw up freaking the whole pregnancy. The only thing I craved, sushi <laugh> the worst. But I know firsthand what a pregnancy alone can do to someone. And again, I didn't even have some of the worst cases. It can be a disease. And I do believe that of all the people to decide what was happening with my pregnancy, I was the best person to choose how that would go.

Sam (22:06):

Yeah, I agree. However, we're philosophically and morally and <laugh>, where my head goes back is to that gray area of how do you manage legally, and we don't have to get into the legality of it, I will just gloss over. This seems

Tayla (22:23):

Like you want to

Sam (22:25):

How do you manage that gray area when you've got a whole group of people that believe that life begins a conception or maybe later or personhood starts 24 weeks or 36 weeks, whatever. I think it's 24 rights, it's something like that viable

Tayla (22:42):

20. I think it does. Obviously with advancement of medicine that age will move up. Sure. I think 26 is about where it's typically

Sam (22:55):

Right now. So how do you manage that in terms of a population where you've got a huge portion of your population that literally goes, you are murdering children right now and another group that's saying, you are completely violating my body autonomy right now. And it's that little gray area that I feel like there's so much explosiveness about. And for me, when I think about these things, I try to, and I end up with a lot more empathy for people on both sides of the discussion because for the most part, come in to it with a lot of good intention and a lot of, Hey, we're just trying to do the right thing. Hope in fact. Yeah. The reason why I kept before this reading, the moral and philosophical debates on this is I'm just hoping people have more empathy for people on both sides of this discussion because it really is difficult. And you had the answer there currently. And how I feel is, which I don't freaking know, I actually don't know what to do with that piece of it. And I hope we can figure out at some point, but still, I feel like I'm gonna keep going into these discussions with no actual opinion,

Tayla (24:19):

<laugh>, this is gonna be the staple of the podcast. No, I agree with a lot of what you're saying because, and that's kind of what I was trying to say at the beginning of the episode, is that there is no point to assuming the worst in the people with the other opinion from you. There is no point because that's so rarely the case. People who are believing that they're protecting babies, why is that a bad thing? That can't be a bad thing. And people that are trying to protect women and their rights and their lives, how is that a bad thing? <affirmative>, again, they could feel like they're at odds. It's a very complicated issue. But I think making sure to humanize the other side, you don't even have to agree with them, but making sure that you're not demonizing people and or assuming that their intentions are wrong or that they don't care about what you care about just because they care about this other thing more, I just think is dangerous. And that's what I want to empathize,

Sam (25:19):

Emphasize, I think. I think also what happens a lot is that there's people on both sides of this debate that are garbage people. True. And so what happens is that the other side gravitates and grabs onto those stories and those loud people where there is garbage people behavior. And so that makes it even more complicated because you're like, Well yeah, that person is pretty garbage, so I can't defend that.

Tayla (25:43):

Yeah, it's really hard. And I think as people, we tend to do this where we put our best against our oppositions worst. It's so easy for someone who is, again, I don't necessarily wanna label it cuz I think it's a little more nuanced, but pro-life, right? To be like, Yeah, check this person. They're just irresponsible, they're just sleeping around. They have access to birth control and don't use it. And they're using abortion as a form of birth control <affirmative>. So clearly that's wrong and they shouldn't be allowed to do that. Right? Versus, and then it's so easy on the other side to be like clearly you hate women and you would force an 11 year old girl to have a baby that she was raped on. And it's so easy to just do that to each side. And that's hard because each point is valid to a point.

(26:40):

In these extreme cases, they're rare, These extreme cases are rare, but they do happen and they are important. So you can't just gloss over them and be like, Yeah, the 11 year old doesn't matter because, or the irresponsible, Let me think of a nod. A bad for <laugh> doesn't matter. It's so complicated. I don't even know where I'm going with this. But pretty much as I answer your questions, I just very much know that they're my opinion based on my experience and my worldview. But I can respect someone. But when it gets into the legalities, I do think, again, the question has to fall back onto who's right is it and why? My answer is, And so a lot of people's answer is women, it's because they are again, autonomous, viable people that can actually make decisions and their life is the one that's being affected.

Sam (27:47):

So I think what I'd like to do is dedicate probably a whole part two to this for the legality. Where do we go from here? Because how do you find a middle ground in all this? Right?

Tayla (28:00):

You wanna talk about this again,

Sam (28:03):

<laugh> on the legal side because, Cause I think there is some good debate to be had on that in terms of how to find that middle ground, because this sounds terrible. I feel like both sides lose, but I think that's what the compromise has to be because there's so many things, right? State's rights versus federal rights to begin. Oh gosh,

Tayla (28:24):

Don't even get me started

Sam (28:26):

<laugh>. Okay, so yeah, let's do that on a part too. But

Tayla (28:29):

Look, yeah, agreed. People

Sam (28:31):

Are coming to this podcast for controversy, Tayla. So actually there's one thing that's

Tayla (28:36):

Your view of our listener <laugh>.

Sam (28:38):

So there was one thing that I wanna end off on. One this? Yeah. I wanna end off,

Tayla (28:43):

You ready to be done <laugh>? No.

Sam (28:45):

So I want to discuss this one last topic and then after that I would love to finish it off with you

Tayla (28:52):

Talking to my dad. Talking

Sam (28:54):

To your dad. Okay. <laugh> giving him the old dad debate. So this was something that it is controversial, we feel very different about this. How do you feel about, So if women have a right where I'm going with this, I do if women have a right to have an abortion or not. Yeah. Do you feel that men should have also a right to whether they should be able to be the father of that child in terms of supporting them financially or not? So say

Tayla (29:27):

Child support.

Sam (29:27):

Yeah, child support. So for example two people are not married, they make a baby, they're pregnant. The man says, I don't want to have this baby with you, you're crazy and I just wanna go on with my life. The lady goes, I do want the baby. And so you're gonna have to pay for the baby for the next 18 years of life. How do you feel about that?

Tayla (29:53):

I feel like it's a really difficult situation for both people involved. But no, I don't think a man should have the choice on whether he can opt in or opt out of child support if a woman decides to go ahead and not kill that baby. And the reason is because they both made the choice together. Unless obviously there's something like rape or something going on that's maybe different. No rape, rape, it's all, or they both made the decision that resulted in that baby. And it's an undue burden to place on a woman to decide only between killing the baby or raising it alone with no support from the other person that created that baby.

Sam (30:41):

So what about the man's perspective where it's the opposite, He wants the baby, they get pregnant. Yeah, he wants the baby. He's like, I'm being ready to be a dad my whole life. And this woman goes, No, I'm going to kill the baby.

Tayla (30:59):

Yeah. Gosh man, you're really gonna make me just, I'm gonna get wrecked <laugh> this episode, <laugh>. I think again, that's a really difficult situation and my hope would be that the woman would consider going forward with the pregnancy and allowing the father to take over from there. That's what I would hope would happen. That's probably the most correct thing to happen. However, no, I don't believe that a man has the right to force a woman to remain pregnant because again, you just probably will never understand how much it affects. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he has a right to force someone to stay pregnant, even if he wants the baby again, horrible situation. And I would hope that the woman would do it. But yeah, when it comes to, again, the right, Yeah,

Sam (31:57):

For me that feels like a double standard in terms of the rights to parenthood or the right to terminating a life so that you meet together. That's my perspective.

Tayla (32:12):

Well say more about it so that I understand in what way and

Sam (32:19):

So beyond in how I described it in the beginning.

Tayla (32:23):

No, you're just saying it sounds like a double standard. Just say more about that.

Sam (32:26):

Oh yeah. So again the woman has the right, So let's go back to that first scenario, which is the man does not want the wait. The man doesn't want the baby <laugh>.

Tayla (32:41):

Geez. I'm gonna, What scenarios did you come up with? Oh

Sam (32:44):

Goodness. Yeah. So the man does not want the baby, the woman does, right? He has no, or

Tayla (32:51):

Again, this isn't okay, it's your scenario. So you just, That's

Sam (32:55):

My scenario. So he has no right, no right to have that baby or not. He has,

Tayla (33:03):

What do you mean?

Sam (33:04):

She has the choice whether to have that baby or not. <affirmative>, he has no say in that

Tayla (33:12):

And whether the baby lives or does not live. Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah.

Sam (33:16):

On the flip side, the man does want the baby. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I

Tayla (33:23):

Was gonna say you're like proving my point a little bit. <laugh> in both in, it's not a double standard in both instances he doesn't have the right, She

Sam (33:30):

Does. No, that's what I mean. So that's why it's a double standard because in the other instance, he does want to raise a baby, but he doesn't have any right to it. But he's still responsible for it.

Tayla (33:39):

No, a man can have a right to the baby if the woman goes ahead and has the baby. He does have a right to it.

Sam (33:45):

If she goes ahead. If

Tayla (33:47):

She goes ahead, yeah. But you mean to if, Yeah. No, and again, I understand that this is difficult, but,

Sam (33:55):

And it makes it more difficult because it feels like a double standard

Tayla (34:00):

<laugh>, and it's okay for it to feel like it because again, you can flip that over and be like, Yeah, it feels like a double standard that a man can go and sleep with. He can sleep with 20 women every night and get every single one of them pregnant and can just get off and not have his life affected. Maybe beyond financially his life can remain the same and he can continue to impregnate people till he dies pretty much.

Sam (34:27):

So a really rich man is the example that you're making

Tayla (34:30):

Here. Well, pretty much, right. I guess there is that double standard on the other side that the people that end up with the burden and the responsibility of raising the kids and figuring out how to take care of them is hugely women in unplanned pregnancies. And especially when the parents are not actual lifelong partners. So that is a double standard that it's like, okay, we both made this mistake, but I am the one who now has to go through a really difficult pregnancy childbirth. We didn't even talk about that. And then also be responsible to parent and find money because child support isn't even based on what is actually supportive to sustain a child. It's based on what percentage of a man's paycheck can he give up. So then regardless of what the man makes or doesn't make, who is then really responsible to figure it out? The woman. The woman is if she decides to have and keep that baby.

Sam (35:29):

So what I'm hearing is regardless of scenario, having children is just awful.

Tayla (35:35):

Wow. It's a hell of a thing, man. <laugh>. No, and I would say maybe that's true. I do think that having children is really hard work. Even in the very best of circumstances where you have a loving, committed partnership where you wanted the baby together, where you're physically and have the financial means to do it, it is still hard. So just even picturing it in the worst of circumstances. So my real opinion is actually that,

Sam (36:08):

By the way, she's raising a finger

Tayla (36:09):

To this, literally speaking with my whole body up folks. My real opinion is not, it's actually, I feel like this abortion question is missing the mark. I think going back to what actually statistically is proven to prevent unwanted pregnancies to prevent this question from even being brought up in the first place. Sex education, free access to contraception. There's like a bunch of other things, but my man's going blank. Okay, social programs to support low income and single mothers. If you want to prevent pregnancies, unwanted pregnancies, if you wanna prevent abortions, that's how you do it.

Sam (36:55):

Agree with that. That's something that we're on the same page with. And in fact, it opens up a whole nother debate. <laugh> part three probably when we talk about the actual So social implications of having access to abortions in terms of crime rates down the road in terms of all sorts of things.

Tayla (37:15):

Yeah. Again, so getting into the moral question is a whole different thing to getting into the, what do the statistics and the numbers show when you force women to have babies they don't want and to care for them and to provide no support once those babies are born. How is that a good situation? Now, I wouldn't say that a dead baby is a better or worse situation, but it's both. They're not good situations in general. So again, going back to what is preventing these unwanted pregnancies in the first place, so that that's not even something we have to focus on. And that's why I'm a huge proponent of things like social programs that provide access to contraception. I think more research should be done to share the contraception load, to have better options for men to have contraception.

Sam (38:11):

You worry, there are new ones coming out soon. Yeah, I've seen it on the internet.

Tayla (38:16):

Hopefully men are more willing to use those options than they are to use fricking condoms. But

Sam (38:22):

I mean that's why they're trying to develop these things is because it would just be a lot easier and more effective.

Tayla (38:28):

True. But I guess my point is, and maybe this is again just my ragy feminist, not maybe the, I don't know, but <laugh>, my point is there even is a form of contraception that men can use. It's not the most effective with condoms. And they're still, even with that simple, cheap thing, so reluctant to use it because it affects pleasure somewhat. So that's frustrating for me as a woman to be like, okay, you're willing to risk this woman's life livelihood for slightly more pleasure for a slightly longer time. So annoying.

Sam (39:05):

Yeah, I don't think you can distill it into that

Tayla (39:10):

Single

Sam (39:11):

Argument. I think it's a little unfair

Tayla (39:13):

Because it is unfair. I'll acknowledge it.

Sam (39:16):

Okay, then I don't need to get into it.

Tayla (39:17):

No, I mean if

Sam (39:19):

You want. No, you acknowledged it. That's all I needed.

Tayla (39:21):

It is a thing though. That is a thing. So it is frustrating. But yeah, again, I guess I'm getting back to the, Yeah how do I wanna put that? Yeah, hopefully. I don't think men typically carry the burden for contraception socially. They're not raised to really worry that much about it because there's that one option. Well, it will be good to spread the social socialization of responsibility to

Sam (39:55):

Both. Well, and I can speak to that just for, I mean a miniature split second. I think if men had get pregnant, they would would spend more time worrying about their contraception. Totally. I think that's why the burden is more on women is because they are the ones that can get pregnant. And unfortunately that's kind of the fact of it. And I do think though, that everyone should be responsible and make sure make, But

Tayla (40:26):

Yeah, the simple way to get around that is, yeah, maybe men would care about it more if they were the ones getting pregnant. So maybe just care a little bit more about women. It's not you and you can't get it, but just maybe think a little bit more about your sexual,

Sam (40:41):

Did you say partner? You can't get it in reference to getting pregnant.

Tayla (40:44):

Oh yes. <laugh>. I thought I said pregnant. Did I not? No, it's too late. It's already late in the day. I haven't had enough sugar <laugh>, actually I did. I had too many ice creams from trade, too much sugar before. But yeah my argument is everyone just needs to be a lot more responsible and people that aren't able to be more responsible need the opportunity to be properly educated as to how they can take control over their lives and their decisions. <affirmative>. And so many people that I know that have gotten themselves into bad situations is because they're uneducated. They don't know what the hell they're doing. And it's like, how much of an excuse is that? I mean there we have Google, you could go and find out. But I do think especially for young people, teenagers, kids, they deserve to understand the implications of decisions that they could be making. And so I believe strongly in comprehensive sex education. And then again, like I said, access to contraceptives. It's ridiculously expensive. Contraceptives are especially trying to find which one affects your body the least. It's hard. And so many insurances don't even cover it for some reason too, even though it's such a medical need.

Sam (42:10):

No, it depends on the state. Exactly.

Tayla (42:12):

Exactly. But that's a thing I, I was on I'm getting very wrong here right now, so sorry, you guys can just skip to the next episode or whatever if this is too much for you. But yeah, I, I had health insurance through one of my jobs and it only covered birth control if you had had five children already,

Sam (42:36):

Which is we grounded. We are in Utah, which means that's only, that's half a family.

Tayla (42:44):

I'm clearly a man wrote this policy <laugh>. In my mind I'm like, you don't know what five pregnancies is clear at what point, why is it okay for you to control your family size or your timing once you've had five children? I think that's outrageous.

Sam (43:01):

A woman could have written it.

Tayla (43:03):

We should Google it.

Sam (43:05):

We could should. No,

Tayla (43:07):

I know a man wrote it cuz who I worked for in the background and all that. But again, I'm just throwing out a couple angry phrases. You're doing a really good job not biting. So sorry, let me just do my breathing exercise. But yeah, I think having affordable access to contraceptives that damage and affect a woman's body and hormones as little as possible, I think it's really important.

Sam (43:36):

Yeah, no, I think this is really good that you're passionate about it and I think it's really good that you use that passion to hopefully educate and make some changes in terms of the mindset of people so that they are less people getting pregnant that shouldn't. And then honestly, the whole hope that I came into this discussion was just to try help you have just a bit of empathy for those on the other side, <affirmative>, the debates because they're two also coming from a really good moral place. Yeah, I agree. And it's complicated and it's complex.

Tayla (44:15):

Yeah. I think when it comes down to it, a lot of my opinions are thinking about children as well. Not just babies in utero, but once children are born, what situations are they being born into? What kind of care and life and how are they growing up thinking about themselves, about the world? Are they safe? Are they in an environment with parents or a parent that is truly able to take care of them and not only keep them alive, but help them thrive? That's what I care about and that's why I care so much about the decisions being in the hands of ultimately, especially the women that will, if they're forced to have babies. I don't know, I just care a lot about children being in a safe situation and that's why I think I want to go before even the abortion question, How do we make sure that people with families and with children are supported enough that children are safe and they're in a good environment and they are loved and cared for because they every child deserves to be

Sam (45:21):

Men.

Tayla (45:24):

Single tear. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I think I'm passionate about it. It's not just about women, obviously I'm passionate about that too, but when the children are born, what is there <affirmative>? There needs to be more of that too, I think.

Sam (45:40):

Yeah. No, I think that's a great way to wrap it up. I think you don't even need to readdress this to your dad. I

Tayla (45:46):

Think that's what I would say to my dad.

Sam (45:47):

That's the end. Full stop. That is what I said. I love it.

Tayla (45:53):

Yeah. Well thanks for pushing me on your situations and questions and things, so I appreciate it. Let's go eat more ice cream.

Sam (46:07):

Thank you for listening to

Tayla (46:09):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (46:12):

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