Corporal Punishment

In this episode, Sam and Tayla discuss whether or not they agree with the idea to reintroduce corporal punishment back into schools and/or homes, prompted by a Missouri school district doing so this year. 

Transcript

Tayla (00:11):

Welcome to the Babe. What do you know about podcast?

Sam (00:14):

We're your hosts husband and duo, Sam and

Tayla (00:17):

Tayla

Sam (00:17):

Air the grievances publicly for your entertainment.

Tayla (00:23):

Well, hi, I'm Tayla. This is Sam my husband.

Sam (00:28):

Hi

Tayla (00:29):

<laugh>. And we are gonna talk about a lot of different stuff. We wanted to do this podcast, so I wanted to do this podcast especially because Sam and I talk a lot about a lot of stuff. In fact, it's our favorite thing to do, wouldn't you say?

Sam (00:51):

Yeah especially when we're dating.

Tayla (00:54):

Right. <laugh>,

Sam (00:55):

I think it was our first official date or second date or something. And you came over and we spoke for nine hours straight.

Tayla (01:04):

Yeah, I left at 7:00 AM

Sam (01:06):

That's all we did.

Tayla (01:07):

And we just talked <laugh>.

Sam (01:09):

Yeah. I just want my in-laws to know that's all we did.

Tayla (01:12):

It is all we did <laugh> just talk and talk and talk and it was actually shocking and that's just never changed. So we talk a lot. It's our favorite thing to do. In fact, even still, we'll put our two kids to bed and then just sit on the couch just for a second is kind of what I assume it's gonna be. We'll sit chat about the day or whatever and then go watch something. And often it's like 11 o'clock and we're like, Hmm, should probably just go to bed <laugh> at this point.

Sam (01:41):

Yeah.

Tayla (01:43):

So we also like to read a lot. We like to know what's going on and we also have often differing opinions on a lot of things. So thought this would be a great way to, I don't know, what's the word? Formalize as you say, or,

Sam (02:00):

Well, really what I'm looking for is validation from

Tayla (02:04):

Validation from other people, strangers,

Sam (02:06):

Validation from other people to let me know that what I'm saying is correct.

Tayla (02:14):

I'm looking ironically for the exact same thing. So I don't think we're both gonna get what we want. But isn't that marriage <laugh>? Just kidding. No, it's not. But yeah. So today I wanna talk about corporal punishment

(02:37):

And I don't know why I'm so excited to talk about it. <laugh>, I don't know either. No, but what kind of brought it up, why I've been thinking about it is because, believe it or not, in Missouri there's a school district that announced that they are bringing back paddling in their schools. And so they are giving waivers or permission slips to parents that they can opt in or opt out of physical punishment to correct behavior. It's been a very long time and apparently the practice remains legal because of a US Supreme Court decision that is over 40 years old. And the ruling said that the corporal punishment and public schools was constitutional which means each state as is typical of United States, can just make its own rules about physically disciplining students. So Sam and I grew up in South Africa, both of us, not together, but we each grew up there and then met here in the States. And the rest is history. But I grew up with corporal punishment. Did you?

Sam (03:55):

I'd say somewhat, yeah. So maybe corporal punishment in the home.

Tayla (04:01):

Yeah. <laugh> both, right?

Sam (04:03):

Yeah. So I didn't really get a lot of physical discipline in schools in South Africa, so that was kind of done away with right before me. So I've heard a lot of stories. There was a lot of stories and there was still a lot of culture around it at school. So teachers especially, I went to an all boys high school and teachers would feel comfortable throwing something at you or whack you with something. Cuz I was for the most part I really good kid. But

Tayla (04:40):

Is that true? <laugh>? Your face looks naughty. Just even saying that.

Sam (04:44):

But I was very cheeky, which is basically means that I was very vocally disrespectful to teachers. Didn't

Tayla (04:51):

<laugh> what cheeky means? <laugh>.

Sam (04:53):

<laugh>. So I loved making the other kids laugh and I loved challenging the teachers. And so yeah, I, I'd make fun of them and stuff like that. And so

Tayla (05:04):

That's a no-no in South Africa.

Sam (05:06):

So there'd be a lot of reaction. And so sometimes I'd get kicked in the shin or I had a teacher. So funny little story. I had a geography teacher, Mr. Owen. And so I have two older brothers as you know, <affirmative>, and they went through Pine town boys' high before me, <affirmative>. So my brother wasn't much, which is being a senior in high school when I came into the high school. And so all the teachers really knew about the Willson Boys before <laugh> I even started. So

Tayla (05:35):

Yeah, that's the curses of not being the first one in

Sam (05:39):

<laugh>. So Mr. Owen, he made me sit, literally, he put my desk in front of his desk cuz he just knew from,

Tayla (05:47):

So he didn't even know you, but he just assumed. Nope.

Sam (05:50):

He just knew. So from the starts. And so he, he even warned me, he's like, If you ever get outta line and misbehave, kick my shins and that still

Tayla (06:01):

Through his desk to your desk,

Sam (06:03):

We were sitting right now you're

Tayla (06:04):

Just gonna like a wham

Sam (06:05):

<laugh>.

Tayla (06:06):

Oh my gosh.

Sam (06:07):

And that happened a few times, but it was worth it.

Tayla (06:12):

What was worth it?

Sam (06:13):

The comments.

Tayla (06:15):

Comments. <laugh>.

Sam (06:19):

But honestly, so I never got caned or paddled or anything official, so I can't speak to that at home. I did probably until I was maybe 11 but it wasn't never like a, Hey let me go get the belt kind of thing.

Tayla (06:34):

So what was it?

Sam (06:37):

Hidings were,

Tayla (06:39):

Well yeah,

Sam (06:40):

<laugh>. Hidings were dished out mainly by my dad and it was more of an emotional punishment than a physical

Tayla (06:46):

One. It's embarrassing.

Sam (06:48):

Well, yeah, so you know, do something naughty and then he would find out, and he had a whole philosophy around this, which is he didn't ever want to hit us while upset. So he

Tayla (07:00):

Would Oh, a lot of thought went into this

Sam (07:02):

<laugh>. No, my dad,

Tayla (07:04):

Yes, that's true.

Sam (07:05):

He really thinks hard about these things or everything anyway. So he would say, go to the bathroom and you knew.

Tayla (07:15):

Is that just universal? Well universal to South Africa, which is not universal. But is that just the bathroom is just the be all and it's the dungeon of punishment?

Sam (07:26):

Yeah, it is the punishment room. So you go to the bathroom and then he'd make you sit and wait in the bathroom by yourself, door closed for

Tayla (07:33):

Indefinite period of time. I

Sam (07:35):

Was a child, so probably felt like hours, but it was probably five minutes. And then he'd come in and he'd talk quietly and he would say and explain why. Yeah, getm in trouble and so you've got all this anxiety and all this, what is actually gonna happen? I don't know because the actual Harding wasn't bad. So he then it

Tayla (07:53):

Wasn't So he didn't hit you very hard. No.

Sam (07:56):

So he had then say bend over the tub because we're probably smart little kids, so we bend over the tub and then whack with the hand and he would always tell you, he's why I'm hitting you with my hand. He's like, So I will feel the pain too <laugh>. So anyway, it wasn't just he just

Tayla (08:17):

To make you feel like he's a little bit on your side, <laugh>, this hurts me to hurt you. Yeah. Wow.

Sam (08:23):

<laugh>. So that's amazing. So it wasn't necessary that we got corporal punishment like, hey, oh you did something wrong. Whack, here we go. It was, it was, I think way more emotionally, Oh my gosh, I'm in trouble moment less about the ju getting smacked. So when you hit a certain age, getting smacked didn't feel like anything. You've got brothers, you play sports, you fall down and stuff. So actually it didn't hurt in terms of physically, but the whole ritual around it was definitely scary a thing as a kid, I think the reason why I probably went it the parents stop with it is that as you become a teenager, that sort of ritual doesn't work anymore. That sort of,

Tayla (09:09):

Not really, Right?

Sam (09:10):

Yeah. You're just like, okay, cool. Yeah, I'll sit here and listen to this. But yeah, it worked as a kid.

Tayla (09:16):

Yeah. I had a similar, obviously mean, this sounds very close to, and our ritual evolved over time. I'm one of five kids. I will say that a little, My parents both gave us signings. It wasn't really primarily one or the other. They actually both was whoever was there, I guess dealing with us at the time. And it was not as rich, it wasn't as consistent that okay first, sometimes it was in the moment, I think I might die and my mom's angry and right there in that angry moment or you're getting wrecked. But looking back, it wasn't, again, same thing. It wasn't that thing, but that initial sting. But beyond that, it wasn't too bad. I will say the ritual, my parents had this thing and I don't know, being in the bathroom was part of the punishment. And my parents would frequently forget that we were in there <laugh>.

(10:22):

But if we could come out yet, then they'd say, Oh, because you're, you're nagging me about it. You have to stay in longer. And they would forget that we were in there. So it's either you're gonna stay in there long because they've forgotten or you're gonna remind them and stay there anyway, it was just horrible. Yeah. Yeah. I would usually get talking to it. Eventually ev evolved to the point where there were so many of us, my dad would have a stand in, a defendant of plaintiff, he would call it caught as the judge. And if you were involved in the case, you know were getting at least one hiding. So if you're even involved, if there's even an accusation or something in involved, we'd each make our case. That's how he'd probably get to the bottom of what's going on without us all talking over each other. And he would sentence us <laugh> to a certain amount of hidings depending on what he determined our involvement in the issue was. And then we'd line up, he'd have us bend over his lap and he would take his sweet time too. He would rub your butt a little bit to prime you or something just to, again, it's that embarrassment. It's just like, oh gosh, just lying here, bend over, just waiting and just, he wouldn't. Yeah. So

Sam (11:42):

Is this where your love of law came about?

Tayla (11:46):

You think? No,

Sam (11:47):

This trauma?

Tayla (11:48):

No, it felt very,

Sam (11:50):

Are we unpacking something that

Tayla (11:52):

<laugh> maybe I would've thought it would've had the opposite. Maybe it's, this is properly how it should be because it just felt unjust every time I'd be like, I was always a defendant pretty much every time my siblings would like to gang up on me and I was just like, this isn't even, this isn't even right. I would often be sentenced to a little bit more part of that as well. Same thing, I'd be a bit cheeky in the case, in the cold case and stuff, but yeah, my mom for a minute tried using a wooden spoon because someone told her that you shouldn't discipline with the same hands that you love with.

Sam (12:32):

Well, I mean that could be true.

Tayla (12:35):

I was, when she told us that, I was like, whoever that woman is, I hate her <laugh> because the spoon is obviously a lot more painful. <laugh>. But that already lasted for a week and then she was like, no <laugh>. Yeah. Went back to the hand.

Sam (12:50):

Well what about this reading this news article made you want to have this be our first topic. What was it? Is it jarring? Is it shocking? Is it surprising? What interests you so much about this?

Tayla (13:04):

Well, I have my opinions on it and I wanna ask you yours first on a bunch of things you can look at it on. Is it effective even? Is it right? How do you make sure that this is always done in a way that is not abusive, I guess.

Sam (13:27):

Okay well I'll tell you what. So in,

Tayla (13:30):

Yeah, what's your,

Sam (13:31):

In preparation for this, while you were introducing the podcast, I Googled benefits, naturally benefits of corporal punishment

Tayla (13:42):

Benefits, if that's what you Googled <laugh>

Sam (13:45):

And the according

Tayla (13:47):

Child Protective Services flagging you right now.

Sam (13:49):

<laugh>. So according to www.procon.org, and this is just, again, I'm still on the Google search so I don't have the whole article, but

Tayla (13:59):

Do you have any idea when this is

Sam (14:00):

Published? No, I have no clue about any information. This is just the first thing that pops up when you type in benefits of corporal punishment. So it says, corporal punishment sets clear boundaries and motivates children to behave in school. Children are better able to make decisions about their behavior, exercise, exercise and be accountable for their actions when they understand the, and I'm assuming as consequences is the last word, but it's have to click on the link and I mean, it seems like a lot of work. So my actual opinion I don't know if that's necessarily true. So I, I've got mixed feelings on the whole thing. I think corporate punishment can be very bad and it can be abusive and it can be abused very easily. I also think that traditional punishments that we use now can be ineffective. And also depending on what it, on what's done, it can be emotionally scarring. I feel like the science on this is always evolving. I, I'm trying to remember where I read it, probably on the internet somewhere the other day that timeouts are apparently emotionally scarring to children.

Tayla (15:17):

Yeah, it's not a thing

Sam (15:19):

Thing anymore. You

Tayla (15:19):

Didn't know

Sam (15:20):

That? Well I do. Well now, according to that article, <laugh>. But yeah, I mean obviously we don't use timeouts. We're still trying to figure out,

Tayla (15:27):

I mean yeah, our kids too. So we're not quite to the very parenting stage of parenting

Sam (15:33):

Yet. No. So I guess we'll figure it out as we go. The plan is obviously not to

Tayla (15:39):

First do no harm, first do

Sam (15:41):

Harm. So what is the answer? I don't know your

Tayla (15:47):

Opinion on it though.

Sam (15:48):

Yeah, my opinion on the opinion on it is that it's probably situational. It can be individualistic. And if I think in terms of corporate punishment, I think you probably could have some level of corporate punishment and have it be effective depending on the child, depending on, it could depend on the culture. It, there's so many different variables here that I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. I do have a strong opinion on that. Like I was saying earlier corporate punishing can be abusive <affirmative> and just the fact that it can be abused. But yeah, maybe you could try to convince me one way or another. I obviously don't plan on corporal punishment for our kids. Right.

Tayla (16:40):

Well why then if you don't have a strong opinion either way, why do you say that then?

Sam (16:45):

So corporal punishment as in the home, and I feel like because I have more time, bandwidth and resources to try and get the results that I would hope the guidance and the type of punishments, and it's less about punishments. So I mean, you obviously seeing me how I deal with Ella, typically

Tayla (17:11):

It's more consequences, right?

Sam (17:13):

Yeah. It's less about getting mad and punishing her rather than trying to educate her. That's my hope. I, I'm trying to educate through my behavior. So I try really hard to <laugh>, even if it's a rough day or things are just hard in general, that when I'm interacting with her, my interaction seems like I'm excited, I'm happy to be around her. That's what I'm hoping for. And then when she misbehaves, it's again trying to express to her that this makes me sad. That's hurtful. Please don't do that. But at the same time, can't, there's a line between that. And I don't know if you've the memes about the mom's like, Don't do that Cody.

Tayla (18:00):

Yeah, just

Sam (18:01):

The kids not gonna understand that. No.

Tayla (18:03):

Yeah.

Sam (18:03):

So it's like how do you cross that bridge to get them to understand? One of the dumb things that I do that is effective right now is I'm literally

Tayla (18:12):

Snapping at her face,

Sam (18:13):

Snap snap at her face because she's a child and when she's freaking out, she literally can't

Tayla (18:18):

Hear me. Very tan

Sam (18:19):

Me. Yeah, yeah. She can't hear me, she can't do anything. So I'll try click to see if I can get her to pay attention. Cause I know as soon as she's looking at me and she's listening, we start getting improvement, we start getting changes. Or one of our fail saves is I'll literally pick her up and me and her will spin around together. We'll just start spinning because I'm trying to get her brain out of that whatever the craziness is, cycle <affirmative>. And I can't talk a reason with a two and a half year old that's in that sort of estate, there's no chance. So yeah. Would spinning a child be considered corporal punishment?

Tayla (18:54):

No, In fact,

Sam (18:56):

But, but the psychology is that I'm doing something physical to get them to change the status of her thoughts and behavior.

Tayla (19:09):

So my opinion on it is that corporal punishment, and this is probably why most people have done it or do it, is effective short term, meaning a behavior's happening right now and it's a cons or a punishment right now that will get them to stop that. But it's not effective long term. It doesn't, I mean, think about it. How many times did you get a hiding for the same thing?

Sam (19:35):

I honestly don't

Tayla (19:36):

Remember. You're that old <laugh>. No, I mean for me it was constant, right? It was the same problem. And because that kind of punishment didn't actually change how I thought about anything, to be honest, the only thing it taught me was how to hide stuff from my parents more effectively so that I wouldn't be punished instead of actually thinking through something and associating a negative outcome with a decision that I made. I think part of that is because it's happening to me, it's like their choice that is punishing me. And it's very easy to feel, especially as a kid, they're unfair. They're the enemy now. Instead of being like, Oh I did, I threw a toy and broke a window and now I have to, I don't know, fix it or pay for it. That's a natural consequence. That's gonna make me think twice again about doing that again. But someone just giving me a hiding is like I made an accident or I made a mistake and now they've just decided this what's gonna happen to me. I guess.

Sam (20:45):

So in the home obviously, yeah. Makes so much sense that corporal punishment is, it's

Tayla (20:52):

Not really

Sam (20:52):

Effective yet. Not the most effective parenting style. But what about in the school system here where it's an optin system? What do you see as the negatives of it?

Tayla (21:03):

Oh, I mean so much. How do you set consistent guidelines that will be followed as far as the amount of force that someone uses on a child and the body type of the child and how it'll react to them. And I think there can be grooming issues where if you're like, you know, have an adult that is touching you physically in a way that isn't typically appropriate, it's not typically okay for another person to hit you, but then you're these kids' brains. I think you can get into a mindset of, but I guess sometimes it is. And then that can translate into future relationships, I think where you're like, sometimes this is okay, sometimes it's the best way, so maybe it's okay for me to do it or for someone to do it to me because then it's confusing. Is it okay for someone to hit me or is it okay for me to hit other people or is it not?

Sam (22:09):

That's a really good point. And again, this is a, is a crazy scenario. What if the corporal punishment is handed out by a robot? So you take out these other potential consequences of, and this is just a thought experiment. Yeah, this will never happen. No, there's not gonna be a corporal punishment robot.

Tayla (22:28):

A

Sam (22:29):

Robot, Although if corporate punishment comes back, that's a business idea right there.

Tayla (22:35):

Dm. Yeah,

Sam (22:36):

Exactly.

Tayla (22:37):

<laugh>.

Sam (22:38):

But here's the thought is clearing, right? There's all of these negative consequences that you kinda go down. You can go down a rabbit hole on one side of because of the interpersonal relationship, but ones if it's like kid does something wrong or bad to a certain extent, and then it's like, all right, push your button, you get spanked. And that the spanking hemps are the exact same velocity and

Tayla (23:02):

So you would just, this robot does it exactly the same to every kid.

Sam (23:06):

Sure. Or its

Tayla (23:07):

The problem. What about the skinny ass kid who they are bones and then the kid who doesn't feel anything Cause they got a lot of meat on him, it's never gonna be, I don't think there's ever a way to make sure that for each child they're in a safe. For sure. A hundred percent guaranteed safe situation with being the point of paddling is to inflict pain, to signal to a brain that something don't do that. Yeah, don't do that <affirmative>. So the point is to inflict pain, but I don't know, does that make sense? I just don't think there's a way to guarantee that it's done safely for every child.

Sam (23:47):

Totally makes sense. So let's then take that and just say, Hey, it's wrong. What's the alternative? And how is it better than corporate punishment?

Tayla (24:02):

I just wanna complain about problems. Don't make me solve problems. Let me think about that. That's a good question actually. I mean clearly there's a lot of more effective ways I think to do this. So it's not, that is, I mean there's a reason this hasn't been done in over 20 years anyway, <affirmative>. Why now? I don't know, maybe people think the kids are, it sounds like some old ca was the kids these days are too soft and I'm tough because I was beat up as a kid. They just wanna impose that.

Sam (24:34):

What if that was true though?

Tayla (24:36):

What was true?

Sam (24:37):

That the kids are too soft these days? Ones if that, that's the overall, there's not a net positive from it,

Tayla (24:45):

I guess. What does that even mean? A kid being too soft? I think. Okay, sorry, go

Sam (24:51):

Ahead. No, you go, you go go there seems you got a

Tayla (24:54):

Thought jam. I think there's a difference between being

(25:01):

Irresponse. So I do think that a lot of kids these days, they are saved a lot from consequences of negative actions that they take. They are not learning very quickly that actions or decisions that I make do have consequences and that I am gonna be held responsible for them <affirmative>. So I do think that's then I think then you wanna make sure that a system is helping them to learn that. I don't think you can be too software being too emotional or something like that. But I do think it's important for kids to learn too, respect people. And this isn't, I'm gonna sound like such a, I don't know, millennial probably, but I don't think someone deserves respect just because they're older than you or just because they're an adult. But I do think that typically teachers do deserve respect because they're professionals. They're in a career to help you learn.

(26:07):

Most of them are getting paid nothing to do it. And they put in a lot, I mean my mom's a teacher, so they put in so much hours of just they do a lot for the most part. And so I think it's just how to help kids to see that the teachers deserve their respect even if they don't love 'em for whatever reason. I do think that something teachers don't have a lot of power to control consequences in the classroom. <affirmative>. And actually when I moved here, cuz I actually actually did have corporal punishment in school as well, which is funny cuz I'm younger than you. But I had it.

Sam (26:48):

We were just so progressive in Durban,

Tayla (26:52):

Oh gosh, Durbanites <laugh>. I feel like you're gonna squeeze Durban into every conversation we have from Durban. So here in Durban we do

Sam (27:06):

It. Honestly, apartheid ended I think a decade sooner in Durban than

Tayla (27:11):

Culturally. You mean <laugh>? <laugh>, Google it.

Sam (27:16):

And obviously I'm saying that kidding me. Yeah, a lot more complicated than that. But yeah, Durbin really is significantly better than the rest of South Africa. Go

Tayla (27:26):

On. Yeah. Okay. I mean we'll leave it there, but I did have it. I remember even in grade one, I actually remember distinctly in grade one my teacher, Mrs. Beckett, she was also the head teacher of the grade. And we would all go out for break or lunch or whatever to play out in the playground. And if you got into trouble throughout that hour for doing something, then at the end of break time everyone lines up in their classes to walk back to classes together. And while everyone was lined up, the five kids or whatever that day that did something had to go and stand up in front of everyone and she would turn them around and give them a hiding on each butt cheek specifically. So two at least and hard, her whole body was shaking. She would grasp their shoulder to get herself some leverage and she would do each butt cheek and she would just go in a line and not only was it happening, but everyone else from grade one to grade, probably four, is standing there watching ze terror in terror <laugh>.

(28:33):

Just grateful it wasn't you that day. And then, well I guess we all just walked down back to the classes together. So I had that and then I moved to the states and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is gonna be amazing. I don't have to wear a uniform. The teachers aren't gonna do anything crazy like that. And I remember sitting in a music class, which I didn't even have, I mean the first for me is sitting in a music class and this one kid was being such an asshole to this teacher and I don't know if she actually was as old as, she seemed like she was in her sixties or something and she was just clearly so tired. And this became a daily thing. This kid was just horrible to her. I didn't get to learn anything and I just sit there being, why am I even here? Because all I have to do is watch these two people going at it and we're not actually learning anything. And it's so frustrating. I was like, bring back, he just needs to be hit. I remember feeling that way. He just needs to get paddled so to speak, and maybe he'll shut up so we can just learn something. So I remember feeling frustrated surprisingly. So there's the two extremes.

(29:54):

I don't know, what do you think if you couldn't choose one of those options where teachers can't really do anything and the kids can just be an asshole if they want to be an asshole or paddling kids. What do you think?

Sam (30:10):

I think in a perfect world where you have kids that behave generally, well then corporal punishment isn't necessary. But I, there obviously are results from it. I mean think about culturally South Africans will be, they'll be a lot more respectful in situations that

Tayla (30:35):

Very defer to teachers too. <affirmative>, your teacher says something. Yeah,

Sam (30:40):

I mean a teacher comes, a teacher comes into the room, another teacher. Mm-hmm <affirmative> just to give the other teacher something or the principal walks in. Yeah. Do you agree with them? Everyone stops what they're doing, we all stand up and there's a formal greeting and then we sit back down. It's like it's a whole thing. So I think there's some merit to it. I really do. And do you feel traumatized from the corporate punishment you received at school when you became an adult?

Tayla (31:10):

I was a bit of a suck up, so not really, cuz I didn't face it personally too much. But I do feel like any respect that I gave teachers was fear based. So it wasn't actually true respect. And then I think probably I struggled a little bit with that. Maybe that's why I struggled so much as a teenager to want to give adults, other adults. Even my parents respect is because I just was forced to give adults respect. My whole childhood, I don't know. So not really traumatized, but I don't think it really taught me what they wanted it to teach me. Again, it changes the behavior in the moment, but does it actually help change or educate the child? No, I don't think so.

Sam (31:55):

Yeah, probably not. But if you are in a group situation where you, you're saying you don't even get to really have a good class experience because there's misbehaving kids. I mean that's one of, I guess benefits of having immediate punishment is that it's instant. And so that there is an environment for learning and paying attention and focus so that the group is behaving is getting a good education.

Tayla (32:23):

Yeah, I think there's something to be said of protecting the experience of all the kids. I'm actually just thinking about this now. So I obviously I'm trained at being a trainer that's a lot of my professional life has been some level of corporate training. And I was just thinking I supervised a bunch of teachers who were teaching a group of adults. I mean everyone involved in the teaching situations were adults and young adults like 18, 19 year olds. But still I was just remembering what did we do when some one of the young adults in the classroom decided to be an asshole or just <laugh>. I wish. No, I would tell my teachers, tell them to get out until they're ready to come in to learn. If you come into the classroom, you're coming in to learn and if you don't wanna learn then go do that somewhere else.

(33:19):

And that's what I would have them do. Obviously I think there's maybe a that that's not gonna work perfectly for everyone. Maybe that's like for some kids it's going to give them exactly what they want, which is to not be in school. But at the same time, in the long run, it is natural consequences for disrupting or not being there prepared to learn is that you're then not gonna learn and you don't get the opportunity and it's there anytime you want to pick it back up any the moment you wanna learn and buckle down and do it, you are welcome back in, but not welcome in the classroom while you're being that way.

Sam (33:55):

Yeah. So many of the consequence and other training techniques that you're talking about work so well on adults or kids that are

Tayla (34:07):

Maybe high school

Sam (34:08):

Age, high school age that are willing to listen and that you can reason with. It's just so hard to implement these things with anyone 16 and younger. It, it's so hard. Again, I'm not promoting corporate punishments. I don't have a strong enough opinion on it because again, I wasn't traumatized by it. I saw the effectiveness on it, at least on my behavior.

Tayla (34:33):

No, I mean for sure.

Sam (34:34):

And so it's, I don't really know. And again, I don't plan on using it or incorporating it. Okay, thanks

Tayla (34:44):

<laugh>. Welcome. <laugh>.

Sam (34:46):

But there's clearly what the punishments systems in schools currently in the United States are not effective. No, I mean it was honestly shocking. I mean we're in Utah, which is a team cultural environment and it's still the level of disrespect, disruption was crazy to me. It blew my mind that, I mean, and this is coming from someone that would like, yeah, I, you know, was that cheeky kid in school, but comparatively I was like, well I still had a wink and a nod relationship with the teacher as I knew he liked me. I like the teacher, but it was just kind of like, here's a gotta safe face. Yeah. I'm gonna give you a little bit of a pushback here. And some teachers actually liked it in their,

Tayla (35:41):

Yeah, I mean

Sam (35:43):

Some teachers,

Tayla (35:45):

For some reason hearing you talk about it again just makes me resist it and be like, No, no, no, it's actually just wrong. You can't do al punishment in school. There's so many reasons why you can't especially when something like this where it's like your parents can opt you in or opt you out. So not everyone is even being disciplined in the same way. Super. I mean I just feel like it's organized chaos. It's super unfair. I feel like you could traumatize a kid if a kid is getting abused at home. I mean, how likely is it that parent believes that that's an okay way to parent? They're gonna opt them into that kind of thing. And then it just perpetuates that this kind of treatment of a child is okay because they're a child and don't, they're too stupid or too young to learn any other way.

Sam (36:36):

Yeah, I agree on that and agree on that. And that goes back to, I think to my original thoughts on it, my first thoughts on it, which was just that it's so easily the system of corporal punishment is so easily a abused <affirmative> it. I'm assuming that's probably why it was done away with in the first place is there was just probably a lot of char, probably also one studies that this is not the most effective type of punishment. And two, there's probably a lot of child abuse actually happening.

Tayla (37:05):

No, for sure. And I do think it's an undue burden to place on the teachers now. I mean they teach teachers, they go through so much man, they go through all this education and then they go and the amount of stuff they have to do, they get no money in this country as well. They're going there to educate kids. Now it's also your job to parent them and you need to do it in this specific way. If they've opted in it, it's either gonna get an adult that doesn't really want to be doing that or you're gonna get an adult who does. And in either way, it's not a good situation if you have an adult that's really happy to dull out these paddles. That's weird. And then when you have adults who are like, Ugh, I don't really wanna be doing this, but now apparently it's part of my job.

Sam (37:56):

Agreed. So this is probably a pendulum swing back from what we're seeing, which is it's gone so far down this other road of trying to protect children from child abuse and the sort of discipline that now it's swinging back where some people are now going, Well let's bring back corporal punishment because clearly the way we've been going isn't working. Which again, maybe not is the right solution. And I feel like it's a stupid Yeah, yeah. And I

Tayla (38:22):

Feel that's me, not you

Sam (38:24):

Saying, Yeah, I feel like we're going back down this pendulum swing the other way is because we haven't really solidified a good alternate solution to the road we're going down.

Tayla (38:34):

Well, I can tell you a couple of things that I just know long term will make a difference is paying teachers more, hiring more teachers so that there's less students to teach ratio so that they actually do have the bandwidth and the space to pay closer attention to kids that are struggling, that are with behaviors, taking time to talk with them like we do with our child. I think investing in a lot more therapists and counselors in the class as well, so that if they're disrupting and you're like, Hey, you need to leave the class cuz you're not here to learn right now, there's a really effective place for them to go and work with an adult who is literally trained to help a child process that and then learn that behavior. I think these are things that could make a huge difference down. Obviously that's, is that gonna immediately change the behavioral of all the kids and the respect levels. But if you start now, then I do think in a few years that that will come with you with huge results. That's

Sam (39:39):

My thought. Yeah, it's just a lot of resources. So Exactly. I think that's the way to go. I don't know how to change it. I don't know how to get more money into public schools. I know. I mean, me and you have spoken about public schools and I'm not a fan of public schools here in the us

Tayla (39:58):

Which is sad because

Sam (39:59):

Yeah,

Tayla (40:00):

I don't know, it feels it's hard where there's not a great option. There's drawbacks to every option where, whereas I do think British schooling systems, even today, I don't think they do al punishment, but there is still that level of respect. So one, it's just quickly learned behavior that's modeled by all the other students from when they're very small that they just take up with them into high school. So that's one thing I think that could help too, is to create a greater culture of respect towards teachers and parents. How they talk about teachers and interact with teachers. I think their kids are watching. So if a parent is gonna take their kid's side every time or condone behavior or whatever, that's gonna trickle down into the student's experience for

Sam (40:45):

Sure. So were I, I've been thinking about how do we conclude these chats? Cuz I don't mean you will end up going to,

Tayla (40:54):

I would just go

Sam (40:55):

Three hours and then eventually we're like, I'm tired, I'm going to bed and I don't wanna end the podcast like that. <laugh>

Tayla (41:00):

For Well,

Sam (41:01):

Good night. Well good night. It's late. So I had an idea. So to kind of tie this in a bow I kind of try to imagine how would you broach this conversation with your dad?

Tayla (41:19):

Ooh.

Sam (41:20):

Cause that means, Cause <laugh> a lot of context. I guess with that

Tayla (41:28):

Why don't you describe my dad? I would love for you to describe my

Sam (41:32):

Dad. He loves to challenge his kids. He loves to have

Tayla (41:39):

Debates.

Sam (41:40):

Yeah. That's a word to describe it. So you guys will have a debate and they can become pretty emotional, I guess is a good word. Yeah. Okay. But you guys are never on the same page, so that's why. Never.

Tayla (41:58):

Yeah,

Sam (41:58):

Never. So why I was thinking it's like if you could say, if you figured out a way that you would say this to your dad, that means that you have figured out a way to, how to say a full stop on what's the problem. Where do we go from here? I'd love to hear that.

Tayla (42:17):

Or just, Yeah, My thing on this is my thoughts on this subject.

Sam (42:23):

The end, we're done and you don't, we're not arguing anymore. And we're going back to eating Sunday desserts.

Tayla (42:29):

<laugh>. Can that be a part of the podcast too? I get sugar afterwards. <laugh> rewarded with chocolate mose

Sam (42:39):

Or something. Literally chocolate's like six feet away from you. Perfect. You can have as many

Tayla (42:44):

As you want. I just want it on record that that's the tradition. Okay. How would I tie this in a bow to my dad? To your dad? So it's not to broach the subject for us to talk about it just dad, is my opinion on corporal punishment in schools

Sam (43:01):

Now that we've had a discussion about it, kind of explored some thoughts about

Tayla (43:04):

It. Yeah. Okay. I would say that my opinion on especially the school district in reintroducing corporal punishment, especially when it's opt in, opt out, I think it's a terrible idea. And I think it's a terrible idea because I do think number one for children is safety. I don't think there's a way to guarantee the safety of kids. It doesn't actually result in the actual change that I think these adults want, which is respect and stuff. And I think that instead we should focus on allocating more funding to education and looking to professionals to help us use that funding to actually effectively, I think people need to sit down and be like, what is actually important to us? What is our problem with things right now? And then make sure that the money is put towards actually making those changes based on data evidence.

Sam (44:06):

Awesome. I love it. That's what I think. Yeah.

Tayla (44:09):

And I just think it's so stupid. I'm like, why are we like 1970? No, we're not.

Sam (44:17):

What year is it?

Tayla (44:19):

It's 2022.

Sam (44:21):

It's 2022. Well, I appreciate that. It's been good to chat about it. Yeah. Again, I don't have a strong opinion still. What?

Tayla (44:30):

I don't convince you.

Sam (44:32):

No, I have an opinion, but I don't have a strong enough opinion to be like, it's stupid, but I do. Oh, okay. <laugh>. What I would like is I would like there to be a lot more resources pushed towards public schools. Again, the better solutions is what you're think towards better solutions. So we need more resources. So more funding, more like you talked about this fic fictitious position where someone, if someone's misbehaving, they could leave class, go talk to an actual trained adult, they could help them, whatever problems that they're dealing with and why they're misbehaving. And finally, I'd love to, if politics was pulled out of schools as well, I feel like it's a, Oh yeah, there, it's such a polarized.

Tayla (45:15):

We didn't even get

Sam (45:16):

Into that. We didn't even get into it. And I guess maybe a topic for another time, but I think those two things would make it so that we had a better solution than agreed punishment. Agreed.

Tayla (45:26):

So if I understand you're right, you're not like anti corporal punishment so much as something better and I am anti corporal punishment and pro something better.

Sam (45:36):

So that seems pretty

Tayla (45:37):

Accurate. All right, love it. Blitz. Let me eat chocolate now.

Speaker 3 (45:44):

<laugh>,

Sam (45:47):

Thank you for listening to

Tayla (45:49):

Babe. What do you know about,

Sam (45:52):

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